17/21st collars, silver plate or silver?

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by mac mcconnell

I just cant see any Mess Member wanting to change the facing colour and if they did when did they go back to white. I agree its a pain to keep clean,but it also is very smart. Ive just picked up a WOII,s Mess Jacket to the 17TH/21ST lancers post 1960 and that has a few stains but I have to say the quality not as good as my QRL mess Dress. I am still out on this one.

Mac

There does appear to be a trend post 1906 to change the initial starting kit in 1902. Its seen in the Yeomanry Regiments so I am sure the Regulars had a round of changes as well just before the Great War. Look how similar the 10 Hussars , the 14th and the kit in question are.... all dark kits. I dont have the 1902 dress regs unfortunately ..... and it would be interesting to see what they have for the 10th Hussars and the 14th Hussars? Then find out what the later submissions were.....

That kit in question is not a Yeomanry kit either... the only "blue" roll collars in the Yeomanry are the 1st Devon Hussars with "Glamorgan Blue" and the Northants Yeo with "Cornflower Blue".

[mac mcconnell]

Hi Griff
This is all very interesting Mick Holtby is back today so I will give him a few days to deal with his emails ect and then see what he has stuck away in the archives.
I hope we find some evidence of this jackets use.

The Oxford blue is the common dark blue to the British army and not just 17th/21st. I have opened many tins of Oxford blue back in the day while on ROPS painting kerb stones blue and white or because of my modelling and painting flare making range signs for the squadrons.

If I am to go with anything I am thinking along the lines of a special Mess Guest as I have already said.

Do you have the dates on when these flat collar Mottos were being issued are these like the larger flat Motto we see around National service.

Still lets hope the Museum can throw up some positive's.

Rgs Mac

[GriffMJ]

Mac

I think the riding britches are original to the jacket and waistcoat...... it could be "riding school" related and not actual mess kit. I can see the Officer in the middle of the school in this kit with his boots and spurs and his staff pattern cap with whip in hand giving instruction to the young Officers.

[mac mcconnell]

Hi Griff
Yes that's a strong contender and a good new angle I can see that. You can understand in those circumstance's trying to keep white clean, but then what about the white stripes on the legs, but that would be a step to far for any Lancer,.
I have attached a few pictures of the mess dress I just picked up much later then yours but it has plenty of Mess night battle damage on it may be if it had been subdued the port would have missed him.... lol. save on dry cleaning. It was just as hard keeping the waist coat on the QRL mess kit clean more so when you have a bit of Belly Pork under it.

Rgs Mac.

[GriffMJ]

Mac

Here is a representation of the riding school theory 17L ...... Also it appears the 10th Hussars kit I have featured above is not regulation Mess kit either? Nor the 14th Hussar..... so, it deepens

[Robthereiver]

Griff

I think members would like to know what the provenance is for these coloured images of mess dress that you've posted as it has not been stated, or are they self generated theories?

Rob

[GriffMJ]

Rob

The images are my own... and the following are Mess Dress from the 1904 Regs. (The only change I have found, in the 1911 Dress Regs, is for the 19th Hussars).

[Robthereiver]

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

Mac

I think the riding britches are original to the jacket and waistcoat...... it could be "riding school" related and not actual mess kit. I can see the Officer in the middle of the school in this kit with his boots and spurs and his staff pattern cap with whip in hand giving instruction to the young Officers.

Griff

Whoa! That's one heck of and assumption don't you think? how in God's name can you substantiate that?
IMO at most you can say they are contemporary and belonged to the same person.

As for 'I can see an Officer..... etc'. What sort of romantic clap trap is that?
I believe the majority on riding instructors in the British Cavalry were NCO's/WO's apart from Riding Masters, and young subalterns would almost certainly be taught to ride by the former.

Clutching at straws comes to mind here!

Rob

[GriffMJ]

Rob

How about ...not dismissing it outright. It was made for a purpose... what that is we dont know. But it would be wrong to discard it ..... based on the "assumption" that it is wrong

[Robthereiver]

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

Rob

How about ...not dismissing it outright. It was made for a purpose... what that is we dont know. But it would be wrong to discard it ..... based on the "assumption" that it is wrong

Griff

OK but lets try and keep matters in perspective, its a mess kit and I think the question we are all trying to answer is was it worn by the 17L or 17/21L.
I have made no assumptions to date and frankly I am indifferent to the out come, but as a point of interest it would be nice to know.
I am certainly not advocating discarding it in any event.

However, the idea of the combined wear of mess dress and breeches being worn in the riding school is nothing short of ludicrous.
Firstly there is no precedent, documentation or images that I know of that would support that theory (but happy to be proved wrong).

Also Riding instructors are just that, its work, and they dress appropriately.

They are not Showmen, nor are they Circus Ring Masters at 'Billy Smart's' Lancers!

I have read up as much as I can, on Officers Mess Kit which has I must admit been interesting.

I note that the Bedfordshire yeomanry's new pattern Kit pre WWI was Lancer
(17L?) pattern with white rolled collars etc. Though they apparently trained as lancers, I don't think they were affiliated to the 17L?.

In the main, it appears that regimental colours did follow through from the old to the new pattern as far as I can see.

I will see what else I can find. Lastly, my complements to you on your graphics very nicely done, I wish my IT skills were as good.

Rob

[GriffMJ]

Rob

Thanks for the compliment Here is the Officers Beds Yeo kit 1902, the other ranks kit is far better looking (I will get round to creating a graphic for it).

BTW, its worth pointing out that in pre Great War mess dress regs, the only "Regular" Lancer regiment with "quoted" (1904 Regs) piping of the back seams...... is the 16th Lancers.

[GriffMJ]

Rob

According to the 1913 Mess Dress Regs..... the 10th Hussar that I have shown is correct. The jacket is missing its "small" gold shoulder cords (miniature silver badges of rank). It was worn with a white roll collar waistcoat with "flat" silver buttons with "XRH" engraved on them. Collar badges: "On the mess jacket the badge is smaller and of silver throughout".

Other Regiments that changed, in 1913, were 8th (KRI) Hussars, 15th King's Hussars and the 2nd DG (Queen's Bays)......... they all made their kit "less colourful". So..... it is not unreasonable to think that the 17th Lancers did the same during the War years after 1913?

[Dave Alexander]

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

Mac

I think the riding britches are original to the jacket and waistcoat...... it could be "riding school" related and not actual mess kit. I can see the Officer in the middle of the school in this kit with his boots and spurs and his staff pattern cap with whip in hand giving instruction to the young Officers.

Mac, I see you keep using the word "white" all through this thread. The facings, cuffs and stripes have never been white but French Grey, a sort of "dusty" white. If you ever heard anyone complain that the dry cleaners could never get "the bladdy stripes white" everyone within earshot would shout "They're French Grey, SPROG!" They only complained once.

[GriffMJ]

Lol... "SPROG".... I have not heard that since school

[mac mcconnell]

Dave if we were talking about the 21st lancers I would agree ,but we have been talking about the 17th Lancers which is a form of white hence the name white Lancers I believe the actual colour is marble White but I am new at all this so I could be wrong.

Rgs Mac