Cap badge fastenings help

[Herman the Tank]

Hi guys - can someone please help me with this:

In my collection I have a ATS Bronzed officers cap badge with the usual rear slider fastening - but recently I have come across the same ATS Bronzed cap badge but with the 2 claw type arms on the sides that fold inwards for fastenings - why is this?

Is it just simply different makers?

Was one generally worn on the service cap and the other on the field side cap? - I'm only guessing here?

The one in question with the 2 claw arms is not a collar dog as it is identical in size to the normal ATS cap badge and all the collar dog fastenings I have for the ATS badges are loops.

Many thanks

[KLR]

It is quite scarce for officer's badges to have sliders but they exist.
The "claws" are known as 'blades' and are the usual fixings for OSD badges (I've got a silver officer's cap badge with blades and I know of - the same badge - with loops and slider too !). As officers paid for their own badges (until 1948) they could ask for whatever fixings they liked! Loops are usually on officer's S&G badges (let alone OR badges).


It is thought that OSD badges had blades because they would not be constantly polished as the blades would break if they were undone all the time.
Loops (and very occasional sliders) on silver and S&G would ned to be taken off the cap to be polished every now and again. These fixings are more robust.

[Herman the Tank]

Originally Posted by KLR

It is quite scarce for officer's badges to have sliders but they exist.
The "claws" are known as 'blades' and are the usual fixings for OSD badges (As officers paid for their own badges (until 1948) they could ask for whatever fixings they liked!

So are you saying it seems like this ATS Bronzed cap badge with blades will have just been specified by the officer when purchasing it - like the one with the slider, that will have been specified when purchased as well?

I didn't realise that officers purchased their own badges was this the usual case then up to 1949?

[magpie]

A picture may help, you may have an other ranks badge bronzed or just left to oxidise for a long time rather than polished.

[cbuehler]

Originally Posted by Herman the Tank

So are you saying it seems like this ATS Bronzed cap badge with blades will have just been specified by the officer when purchasing it - like the one with the slider, that will have been specified when purchased as well?

I didn't realise that officers purchased their own badges was this the usual case then up to 1949?

The standard fixings for OSD cap badges were blades. An officer would purchase his kit from a tailor or other supplier and could theoretically specify a particular fixing for a badge, but this would not be the norm and would take what was available according to regimental or WD specifications.
OSD badges with lugs are normally for collar badges, but could have been utilized as cap badge if a bladed badge was unavailable or lost etc., as long as it was the same design and size as the cap badge of course.
OSD badges with sliders are scarce and usually found on badges that were very small or had a design making the attachment of blades difficult, so are in my opinion a makers variation and likely not a personal specification.
Yes, officers of most all armies had to purchase all of their kit in the old days. During the war, certain items such as field gear etc. could be obtained from the Quartermasters stores, but uniforms and insignia were privately purchased.

CB

[Rob Miller]

Interestingly the plastic ATS badges is one of very few with a slider or vertical shank, maybe its something to do with the ATS cap?

Rob

[leigh kitchen]

Originally Posted by Rob Miller

Interestingly the plastic ATS badges is one of very few with a slider or vertical shank, maybe its something to do with the ATS cap?

Rob

And as I've theorised before, servicewomen being liable to have longer hair than a serviceman, lugs and pins etc were more likely to catch in their hair?

[Herman the Tank]

Originally Posted by cbuehler

The standard fixings for OSD cap badges were blades.
CB

Thank you for the info/lesson - I am wiser now.

Re the different fastenings - lugs, blades, sliders - in reference to my question would the same fastenings that you are saying would have been used still apply to a 'officers field cap/side cap'? - or would an ATS officers side cap only use sliders?

Many thanks

[magpie]

Again a picture would help, sounds like an other ranks badge with a slider .

[Herman the Tank]

Originally Posted by magpie

Again a picture would help, sounds like an other ranks badge with a slider .

This is the badge I am referring to:



Would this officers bronze badge have been attached to a field cap?

[Sonofacqms]

The badge you have is not an officers bronze badge, but it's an other ranks badge that has not been cleaned probably since it was worn and it has a slider.

Officers bronze badges usually have two blades.

Rob

[Herman the Tank]

Well it looks like I am getting all sorts of answers here.

The image to me looks like the Bronze officer type, other ATS badges I have are far brighter, also I have some Bronze officer collar dogs that are more or less the same shading and a Bronze ATS badge with blades that's virtually the same as well.

Now your telling me that Officers bronze badges usually have two blades - that's differing from other answers on here as well?

So, is the image officer Bronze or what? - I'm getting really confused here!

To simplify things: what type of fastening was used when attaching a Bronze Officers ATS badge to a field/side cap?

[Rob Miller]

A picture of the back may help.

Rob

[cbuehler]

Ah, I think this may help. The normal and standard badge for officers OSD cap badges would have blades, which are two pointed fixture as in this photo.
They were affixed and folded over with no intention of removal for polishing of course.
The badge you have has a slider, which is normally for ORs only, with exceptions as I have touched upon earlier. As mentioned, it is ORs badge that may have tarnished so badly that it appears to be bronze.
Now, just to complicate things, it was not unknown for officers to have OR badges purposely darkened to a bronzed finish, sometimes done by armorers or others in the field, due to availability problems, or have a badge with lugs. It is not impossible that your badge was done in this manner and by the appearance of the finish and the darkened slider as well, it just may be such a badge. Unusual things were done in wartime.

CB

[Tinto]

Hi,
Here's an example of a bronzed Tank Corps badge with slider.
Cheers,
John