British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > British Military Insignia > Cavalry, Yeomanry, Tank/RAC Badges

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 21-05-11, 03:37 PM
1stTankie's Avatar
1stTankie 1stTankie is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 695
Default KDG Bandsman's Pagri Badge

In 1915 the KDG replaced their Austrian Eagle Cap Badge with the new "Crown on Star" version. Similarly, at a later date, ( L&D suggest c1918) the new cap badge was worn as the WO's and Sgts Arm Badge. (It was thought that the collar badge with 2 lugs/loops, E/W, was worn but no evidence has been found to support this.) L&D state that the fixings of the new Arm Badge are a matter of speculation.

In the past year I have acquired 3 badges, each of which has had the vertical slider removed and replaced by a pin fastener in 2 instances and by lugs/loops in the third. All three appear to have been "DIY" particularly the lugged one.

I believe that all three were worn as KDG Arm Badges but would welcome opinions please.

Best wishes

Gordon
Attached Images
File Type: jpg KDG Arm Badges.jpg (34.4 KB, 57 views)
File Type: jpg KDG Arm Badges,rev.jpg (28.6 KB, 65 views)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 21-05-11, 03:45 PM
Alan O's Avatar
Alan O Alan O is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 13,067
Default

You may well be right. It was however a fairly common practice for WW1 badges to be pinned for wear when in civilian clothes. I have seen photos with a variety of full sized cap badges being worn on jacket lapels.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 21-05-11, 08:17 PM
1stTankie's Avatar
1stTankie 1stTankie is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 695
Default KDG Arm Badge, 2nd Pattern

Hi Alan

Thank you very much for your reply. You could be right.
However we have photographic evidence that it was worn as an Arm Badge; I'm not sure if any exists of a "civilian" wearing this particular one in a lapel.
Maybe that is asking too much. Until I see that I will continue to to believe they are Arm badges!!

Best wishes

Gordon
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 22-05-11, 11:29 PM
Cardiffbloke's Avatar
Cardiffbloke Cardiffbloke is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 360
Default Star & Garter Arm Badge

Hello Gordon long time no hear!

Great badges you have there... The cap badge was definitely worn as an arm badge and not the collar badge as some people seem to think. I have reams of photographic evidence and a whole host of variants including one cast in solid silver made by Wew & Co (a now defunct jeweller from Brum). I also have a number of home made items as the badge was never officially sanctioned as an arm badge and therefore never manufactured for issue or sale . All of them have lugs or an excuse for lugs.... I have none with clasp fittings... then all of a sudden you find 3....I have to say though i am sceptical... I think they would have been a really 'sloppy' fit on the uniform and i tend to go with what Alan said. There are loads of brooched badges (collar type) in the museum, but no cap size badges... But hey!! Who will ever know... anyone that might have been able to say "yes my arm badge had a clasp" is now gone just like the guys who wore it with lugs... I certainly wont die in a ditch over it.... Maybe you can sell/trade one of them with me?

Regards Howard
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 23-05-11, 05:53 PM
1stTankie's Avatar
1stTankie 1stTankie is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 695
Default KDG Arm Badge, 2nd Pattern

Hi Howard

Good to hear from you; many thanks for your info and opinions.

I'm afraid I don't buy into the "these were modified for wear on plain clothes" syndrome. I have to admit I have never seen photographs of ex-soldiers wearing their badges this way. (this will no doubt produce a flood of examples that have somehow escaped my notice over the years, could even start a new thread) especially the KDGs who had this particular badge forced upon them, continued to ignore the order for as long as possible, and changed back to the eagle as soon as possible. Had they been given a referendum how many would have voted to retain the "Star and Garter", let alone wear it in their lapels?

Nor do I think the pin fastening would necessarily imply a sloppy fitting on the uniform. Done with care they would retain their position very precisely.
Similarly, the fact that the museum doesn't have one to me suggests that the curators in years gone by were not aware of them. There are loads of badges in the collectors' world that museums would love to have.

I rest my case but, as you so rightly say, we may never know.

If by way of exchange you feel you would like to put up the Wew & Co solid silver one I feel I might be persuaded!!

Best wishes

Gordon
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 23-05-11, 06:11 PM
Alan O's Avatar
Alan O Alan O is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 13,067
Default

A relative of mine with a full sized RA badge on his lapel. Definitely a full sized cap badge. This is not an uncommon occurence and is seen on lots of WW1 photos for many regts.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg evans ra.jpg (30.5 KB, 31 views)
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 23-05-11, 07:27 PM
1stTankie's Avatar
1stTankie 1stTankie is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 695
Default

Hi Alan

Many thanks for that; that is the first one I have seen.

Pin or slider?

(I jest, please forgive me.)

Best wishes

Gordon
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 23-05-11, 09:05 PM
Robthereiver's Avatar
Robthereiver Robthereiver is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 767
Default

Hello Gordon
As a collector of Cavalry, and specificaly that of NCO arm badges for many years I think I can honestly say I have not in all my collecting and research come across a broached (pin & clapsed fixing) arm badge being used on any service uniform.
As nice as your badges are , I concur with both Howard and Alan that they are Cap Badges converted to lapel/sweetheart broaches, which was common practice.
I will not 'die in a ditch over this' either, as you never know there is always an exception, but I do feel, as there is no president and due to the practicalities of wear ie sloppiness, insecurety etc. you might be 'clutching at straws' at best. However, you are welcome to your oppinion, naturally.
Regards
Rob
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 23-05-11, 09:36 PM
1stTankie's Avatar
1stTankie 1stTankie is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 695
Default

Hi Rob

Would you accept that the middle one of the three shown could have been a "DIY" conversion to an Arm badge?

Gordon
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 23-05-11, 09:38 PM
1stTankie's Avatar
1stTankie 1stTankie is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 695
Default

Hi Howard

Are you looking to the future and wishing to wear it as a lapel badge in your demob suit?

Gordon
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 23-05-11, 10:19 PM
Robthereiver's Avatar
Robthereiver Robthereiver is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 767
Default KDG Badge

Hello Gordon

I can't quite make out the image and nature of the fixings, it is possible of course, but I'm sorry to say from what I can see I suspect not.
Please find attached reverse image of a (allegedly, as one can never be certain) converted cap badge to an Arm Badge. Note North/South lugs. Probably dating mid to late 1920's.
However, your badges are an excellent find and scarce enough in their own right, as I've seen many broached cap badges but none to the KDG, to date.
Best wishes
Regards
Rob
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1stTankie View Post
Hi Rob

Would you accept that the middle one of the three shown could have been a "DIY" conversion to an Arm badge?

Gordon
Attached Images
File Type: jpg KDG Badges 003.jpg (16.4 KB, 22 views)
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 24-05-11, 07:38 AM
1stTankie's Avatar
1stTankie 1stTankie is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 695
Default KDG Arm badge

Good morning Rob

New images. This "conversion" was very much a "DIY" effort, the end product being crude but functional but only marginally worse than the one you have.

The fitting of lugs using what looks like parts of split pins, in this instance fitted E-W, the more usual configuration for an Arm badge, would suggest this was not intended to be worn on plain clothes.

The additional copper strip securing the crown is also the first time I have seen this technique.

Anyway, as everyone says , we may never know the truth. Speculation remains the only option tinted by a little application of reason.
I take your point about never having seen a broached Arm badge before. However the circumstances of the origins of this one are well removed from what we may call the "norm". We were at war, the need for change was sudden and there was no usual supply chain. This could have been the the initiative for improvisation for which the army is well known.
As I understand it, from the research undertaken by Gordon Dine and the late David Linaker, (both incidentally very good friends of mine) there were no official issues of this badge, a view endorsed by Howard. I have shown one of the broached badges to Gordon Dine and his view was that, in view of the shortage of all such modified badges today, both broached and lugged, these could well have been attempts at making up the deficiency. Any modification, however done and worn, would have been preferred to the wrath of the RSM for being improperly dressed!

Whatever, it has been an interesting thread and I have learned a lot and thank you for you contribution.

Best wishes

Gordon
Attached Images
File Type: jpg KDG Arm Badge 1.jpg (53.6 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg KDG Arm Badge 2.jpg (49.7 KB, 14 views)
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 24-05-11, 11:25 AM
Robthereiver's Avatar
Robthereiver Robthereiver is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 767
Default

Good Morning Gordon
Thank you for new images. Much better view, and I have to say I would now concede that this could well be an Arm Badge, the fixing loops are more substantial than first appeared. The copper strip is a first for me too, but overall it does look a purposeful converstion.
With regards to broached badges being worn as Arm badges I remain unconvinced, but will keep an open mind.
As with many of these things relating to Badges we can only base our oppinion on our experience and knowledged gleaned, and weighed up with sound reason, we may get something close to an answer. Sometimes we will never know of course, as you say.
I agree it has been an interesting thread, a subject worthy of discussion, most enjoyable.
All the best
Regards
Rob
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 24-05-11, 03:12 PM
1stTankie's Avatar
1stTankie 1stTankie is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 695
Default KDG Arm badge

[QUOTEGood Morning Gordon
I have to say I would now concede that this could well be an Arm Badge, the fixing loops are more substantial than first appeared. The copper strip is a first for me too, but overall it does look a purposeful conversion.


Hi Rob

Success (of sorts) at last.

I am most grateful for your concession (if that's the right word)

Best wishes

Gordon
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 24-05-11, 11:28 PM
Cardiffbloke's Avatar
Cardiffbloke Cardiffbloke is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 360
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1stTankie View Post
Hi Howard

Are you looking to the future and wishing to wear it as a lapel badge in your demob suit?

Gordon
Shudder at the thought old boy! I already hold myself up to ridicule for wearing bowler, stiff collar and rolled up brolly in Hyde Park every May never mind wearing a smelly old cap badge in my lapel!

I just wanted one like that for my collection; as I dont have such an example and you have 2 identical ones... but if you dont want to trade I quite understand... I too have badges I would never part with...But i do have some nice stuff to trade... Cest la Vie
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
bandsman, kdg, kings dragoon guards, pagri

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

mhs link

All times are GMT. The time now is 12:05 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.