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  #16  
Old 16-08-13, 11:16 PM
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Phillip Herring Phillip Herring is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack8 View Post
You say in your earlier post that you have quite a few of these in your collection, may we see some of yours?

May I ask the experts here what is their conclusion about the pattern of badge sold recently by Minden Militaria for £500, is it genuine WW2 issue or not?

There is also another one for sale at present by Chairborne Militaria for £600.

Jack
The Chairborne badge is the same one pictured in this thread's opening post.

Phil
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  #17  
Old 16-08-13, 11:48 PM
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Yes, you're correct the one listed on my website is the same one pictured at the start of this thread.

I've had a customer after one for ages, admittedly a Scully made one but this was available for less so that was fine. However, after he saw the badge get assassinated on here he changed his mind and left me out in the cold.

Anyway, I'm just looking to cover my costs. Yes it mightn't be as nice as the Scully made Canadian pieces but then it is less money.

The trials and tribulations of buying and selling I guess...

Jack
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  #18  
Old 17-08-13, 01:21 AM
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From Joyce, Ken Into the Maelstrom Pages 90, 94-99

Page 90 Picture 141. Describes the reproduction cap badges as coming "...in bi-metal, brass, white metal, silver, silver with bogus maker and assay marks and bronze. They are found with slider and lug fasteners and are cast solid or stamped."

Page 97 Picture 160. "The UK-made officers' badge which first appeared in mid 1944. Note the rounder flow to the feathering details and the right section of the scrolling compared to the Scully badge. These were only made with half rounded copper alloy lug fasteners and split pin."

Page 98 "Both the Scully and the UK made badge were constructed in the exact same way, both using an almost identical three-piece die set."
Joyce then describes the manufacturing process, including the use of "copper alloy pins". "The pins, soldered to the overlays, were then insertedthrough holes made in the brass portion of the badge. The exposed heads of the pins on the back of the badge were then hammered into a dome or flattened to secure the overlays to the badge."

Page 99 "The badges made in England were not marked."

From Ken Joyce's description, I am assuming that the UK made badges should be flat backed with pins (rivets) and no makers' mark.
Does anybody agree or disagree with this summation?

Phil
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  #19  
Old 17-08-13, 02:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack8 View Post
You say in your earlier post that you have quite a few of these in your collection, may we see some of yours?

May I ask the experts here what is their conclusion about the pattern of badge sold recently by Minden Militaria for £500, is it genuine WW2 issue or not?

There is also another one for sale at present by Chairborne Militaria for £600.

Jack


Absolutely Jack8,

I intend on posting photos of some variations when I had the free time to get everything together and take some pictures, which is why I requested for anyone to post any pictures of their cap badge(s). I thought it would be a good opportunity to compare workmanship details and consistencies between several samples in other collections other than mine.
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  #20  
Old 17-08-13, 03:51 PM
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For those who post pictures of their 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion officers' cap badges, be aware that you may receive unsolicited PM's offering to buy them.

Phil
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  #21  
Old 17-08-13, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillip Herring View Post
From Joyce, Ken Into the Maelstrom Pages 90, 94-99

Page 90 Picture 141. Describes the reproduction cap badges as coming "...in bi-metal, brass, white metal, silver, silver with bogus maker and assay marks and bronze. They are found with slider and lug fasteners and are cast solid or stamped."

Page 97 Picture 160. "The UK-made officers' badge which first appeared in mid 1944. Note the rounder flow to the feathering details and the right section of the scrolling compared to the Scully badge. These were only made with half rounded copper alloy lug fasteners and split pin."

Page 98 "Both the Scully and the UK made badge were constructed in the exact same way, both using an almost identical three-piece die set."
Joyce then describes the manufacturing process, including the use of "copper alloy pins". "The pins, soldered to the overlays, were then insertedthrough holes made in the brass portion of the badge. The exposed heads of the pins on the back of the badge were then hammered into a dome or flattened to secure the overlays to the badge."

Page 99 "The badges made in England were not marked."

From Ken Joyce's description, I am assuming that the UK made badges should be flat backed with pins (rivets) and no makers' mark.
Does anybody agree or disagree with this summation?

Phil
Your summation seem accurate although in addition he says that they were only made with half rounded copper alloy lug fasteners and split pin. I would interpret this as the D shaped lugs typically found on many other WW2 badges.

I am not familiar with Ken Joyce's work and have never seen a known original one of these in the flesh, so I welcome the next best thing in seeing the photographs from members here. I promise not to pester anyone about selling them.

Jack.
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  #22  
Old 18-08-13, 05:25 AM
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It is okay Jack8, that’s a ‘no brainer’ for most people.

Everything that is posted on a forum has the potential of some collector or dealer asking if an item is for sale. It’s not the end of the world, it’s too easy to say yes or no. Feel free to PM me anytime you like!

Cheers
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Last edited by cw2311; 18-08-13 at 05:52 AM.
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  #23  
Old 18-08-13, 12:57 PM
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Hello Jack,
I have to say with regards to the second badge you mention, I had not seen the first, I would not go anyway near it, if you just want an example of a badge to this unit, I would just go and buy a good honest other ranks in plastic or brass.
If however, you can't live without an officers badge, then I would, if I were you, buy a good text book example by Scully.
Remember too, provenance is everything with 1st and 6th Airborne, I have not seen any of these British made badges with one.
The battalion was by no means a huge organisation, before D day there would only be thirty or so officers and I think around six hundred men.
I can remember seeing the three common versions of these British made badges as a boy thirty years ago, I did not like them then and I really don't like them now.
About twenty years ago, I had a long conversation with Louis Grimshaw in Calgary about these badges, he was not very keen either!
They certainly have been around for many years though, some people consider them to be original, I am yet to be convinced.
By mid 1944 many officers of both divisions had taken to sporting fine embroidered beret badges, you could just walk into Hobson's and buy what you needed back then, some of the badges were actually made by the Royal School of Needlework too, I used to have a superb Beret with a very fine embroidered badge that belonged to Captain John Hanson 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion.
It is the one thing I regret selling, but, it went to a close friend, so one day I might buy it back.
All I can say is please do be very careful with your money, far to much rubbish being sold as original these days, don't be greedy, just buy good honest text book stuff, good luck and kind regards,
Frank


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack8 View Post
You say in your earlier post that you have quite a few of these in your collection, may we see some of yours?

May I ask the experts here what is their conclusion about the pattern of badge sold recently by Minden Militaria for £500, is it genuine WW2 issue or not?

There is also another one for sale at present by Chairborne Militaria for £600.

Jack
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  #24  
Old 18-08-13, 01:22 PM
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Hello Frank,

You had an embroidered 1st Can Para cap Officer badge? Now that’s an impressive find!! Do you have any pictures of it that can be shown here?
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Last edited by cw2311; 18-08-13 at 01:35 PM.
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  #25  
Old 18-08-13, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by cw2311 View Post
Iím sure that between all the collectors who are following this thread, many of you already own one of these badges. Would some of you be so kind as to posting a few pictures of their 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion Officerís cap badge(s)?... even just the back of them for Ďrivet referenceí. Then we may be able to see the several types that were in production along with maker marked and unmarked.

Cheers
Not a huge photo, but here is front and back of my Scully showing the rivet construction.
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  #26  
Old 18-08-13, 03:13 PM
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Super example DavidS!!

Thank you
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  #27  
Old 18-08-13, 03:51 PM
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No, not at all impressive, I have had several such berets to officers of both divisions and have been collecting 1st and 6th Airborne since a small boy, there was no internet and rather fewer fakes and forgeries in those days too.
I once owned one of Captain Hanson's berets, which was complete with it's very typical badge, it was just another officers beret and was not very impressive, it was really rather grubby, but, a perfectly normal beret of its day like all the others you see to officers of both divisions, like those in the Recce Corps, RAMC and Royal Signals etc.
All along time ago now, I should have kept it, with hindsight, solely on money grounds, but, as its owner was not British and as this particular unit was withdrawn from the 6th in May 1945 and I think was actually the first Canadian unit to return home, I decided to let my friend have it, now of course, as I said, I do regret that, perhaps I will get it back one day and sadly, no, digital cameras were not around back then.
Kind regards Frank

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Originally Posted by cw2311 View Post
Hello Frank,

You had an embroidered 1st Can Para cap Officer badge? Now thatís an impressive find!! Do you have any pictures of it that can be shown here?
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  #28  
Old 18-08-13, 10:04 PM
Jack8 Jack8 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidS View Post
Not a huge photo, but here is front and back of my Scully showing the rivet construction.
That's a really nice example, thank you for posting it David.

Frank, thanks for your informative reply and advice and thanks to cw2311 for the PM offer.

Jack.
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  #29  
Old 21-08-13, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Kelley View Post
No, not at all impressive, I have had several such berets to officers of both divisions and have been collecting 1st and 6th Airborne since a small boy, there was no internet and rather fewer fakes and forgeries in those days too.
I once owned one of Captain Hanson's berets, which was complete with it's very typical badge, it was just another officers beret and was not very impressive, it was really rather grubby, but, a perfectly normal beret of its day like all the others you see to officers of both divisions, like those in the Recce Corps, RAMC and Royal Signals etc.
All along time ago now, I should have kept it, with hindsight, solely on money grounds, but, as its owner was not British and as this particular unit was withdrawn from the 6th in May 1945 and I think was actually the first Canadian unit to return home, I decided to let my friend have it, now of course, as I said, I do regret that, perhaps I will get it back one day and sadly, no, digital cameras were not around back then.
Kind regards Frank

Hello Frank,

Perhaps not impressive to you but to myself and Iím sure other collectors, that would be a truly magnificent addition to any para collection. I have what I would consider a healthy collection of 1st Can Para stuff and war time dated para berets, but I have never seen one of these bullion 1st Can Para officer cap badges before, I have only heard about them.

If by chance in your travels you do come across another or even see the fellow who you sold yours to, please post it or send me a picture. It would truly make my day!

Cheers
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  #30  
Old 21-08-13, 05:51 PM
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cw2311,

I took this photo back in 2010 of a 1 Can Para Embroidered Beret....before I discovered the close up function on my digital camera and hence the poor picture quality.

It was taken at the Petawawa Museum and was labeled and attributed if I remember correctly to Lt. Col. G.F. Eadie .

Mike
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