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  #1  
Old 08-08-22, 06:21 AM
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Default 3rd Middlesex RGA Volunteers

Hello gentlemen,
i look on these pictures since some days and i am not sure if i see an original period badge, (with rotating wheel).
I have doubts looking at the crown, ball and crown on the top are damaged or badly strucked, and the very fresh looking copper lugs.
Can i get any help and expertise before i decide to buy it or not ?

Thanks in advance for your answers,
kind regards
Markus
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  #2  
Old 08-08-22, 06:38 AM
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A very common fake.
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  #3  
Old 08-08-22, 06:40 AM
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Thanks !
Is it the fake with the "high odd ball" above the crown, here removed to make it harder to recognize ? That is what i thought ........

Kind regards
Markus
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  #4  
Old 08-08-22, 07:15 AM
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Hi Markus, the main reason I believe it’s a fake is because it is a very rare badge, and I don’t think even anyone on this forum has a genuine one, ( prove me wrong please with a photo), but go to most uk military fairs, and you can buy at least 2 for £12.
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  #5  
Old 08-08-22, 08:43 AM
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I have not seen an original one, there are one or two in the albums but i guess they are also fakes. I saw them on ebay.co.uk in mass for small money, but this one is offered by a dealer for 150 GBP. And there is not the "spike" ,which the fakes i know, on the crown so i thought it could have a chance ....
The point is - hard to collect experience and knowledge from here, Germany, and not so easy to visit a militaria fair in UK on saturday morning .....
That is the reason why i post so many "stupid" questions here .... please apologize for that.

Kind regards and a nice weekend
Markus
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  #6  
Old 08-08-22, 09:52 AM
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Default 3rd Middlesex RGA Volunteers

I have a 3rd Middlesex RGA Volunteers which I had to repair as the loops were missing, as to whether it's an original I am sure people would offer different opinions.

Rob
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  #7  
Old 08-08-22, 10:22 AM
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Hello Rob,
have you posted it in an album or would you show it here ?
I would like to see an original badge .....
If it is so rare, i guess there were not many manufacurers/different dies ......

Regards
Markus
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  #8  
Old 08-08-22, 10:59 AM
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Hallo Markus, wie geht's? This is not the first time that you have enquired about this badge, so, I guess that you must really like it, this is also not the first time that you have been told that it is a fake!

I do not know whether it is or not, however, I do know, that back in January, this year, I had one remaining gap in the Volunteer Artillery section of my RA gunbadge collection, and I arranged a trade deal for this badge, with the dealer who has it.

Numerous emails were exchanged, but in the end, sadly, the trade deal did fall through, due mostly to an unfortunate delay in the proceedings. I did keep up my side of the deal, however, and although I didn't actually end up with the badge, I am still in credit.

The dealer himself does not think that there is any problem with this badge, and as far as I'm aware, he is considered to be a perfectly genuine sort of a guy. We did discuss the badge at some length, and exchanged quite a few emails, Norman Litchfield even came up at one stage, so, there you have it, that's my two pence, worth.

Last edited by thursdaychris; 08-08-22 at 12:17 PM.
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  #9  
Old 08-08-22, 05:52 PM
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Hi Chris, thanks, fine !
But - so sorry for asking abouth this badge a second time !
You are right, i posted it here already and it was classified as a copy.
I forgot it, may be my age ..... and discovered it again last weekend.
I can only beg for pardon.
And yes, i like these gun badges in deed, and i see now how rare they are. So i must have a lot of patience and luck to get one of the volunteer-, militia- or territorial gun badges with unit designation.
Thanks for all comments and kind regards
Markus
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  #10  
Old 08-08-22, 07:11 PM
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You may find this this thread of some relevance and use:
https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ad.php?t=76213

Clearly Norman Litchfield had badges from this die in his collection and I believe it may even have been pictured in his book.

I have a developed what is likely to controversial theory about these WM Third Middlesex R.G.A. Volunteers badges… they’re all old fakes.

I’m reliably informed by Simon (Manchesters) that the Warwickshire R.H.A. was an officers only TF Arty cap badge. Now I’m of the growing opinion that the Third Middx R.G.A. and West Riding R.H.A. can be added to this list.

The officers Third Middx badge I’ve seen in bronze is not from the same die as these WM badges.

One day when time permits I’ll get around to posting my observations on these Third Middx and the West Ridings that Litchfield pictured, their similarities also with a spurious RA Volunteers badge.

But in a nutshell the WM and GM versions respectively of both badges are all shades of grey in terms of how poor the reverse impression and voiding is.

When this duo is compared to the genuine First Hants, Fifth London and W. Riding they just do not stand up in terms of quality.

Probably should put my tin hat on for suggesting Litchfield may have got these wrong.
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  #11  
Old 09-08-22, 05:58 AM
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Thank you Luke for the links, they are realy helpfull and may be the best source now available about these badges. I have subscribed to the thread ...
If i compare the badge i requested, which is for sale now, i would conclude that it was made with the same die as yours and Simons badge, see pictures added. Different are the spare wheel and the lugs, and even if two badges come from the same die, edges and voids can look very different due to manual post-processing. So here the upper edge of the crown .....
It would be great if you find the time to post your actual observations and conclusions about these badges.
Thanks for your efforts to explain me the problematic to judge about these badges,
kind regards
Markus
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  #12  
Old 09-08-22, 03:14 PM
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I have a silver one which I have always believed to be genuine but open to other members views? Denis
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  #13  
Old 09-08-22, 04:45 PM
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I think it is made with the same die like that Luke H postet in #10 in the above linked thread.
After all i have seen and read now - a good sign.
Regards
Markus
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  #14  
Old 09-08-22, 05:18 PM
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Happy to help Markus. I would agree, the badge in post #1, mine and Simon’s WM examples are all from the same die.

The badge Denis shows is however from another different die. There are many subtle differences across the whole badge.

Note the differences to the lettering, jewels and dots v’s wavy line above them in the crown / scroll comparison.
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  #15  
Old 09-08-22, 05:40 PM
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Hello Luke,
thanks again for all the help and explanations.
I saw that the badge shown by Denis is different to yours and Simons.
I wanted to say that it is very close, possibly from the same die, like shown by you in #10 of the old thread.
I have also tried to compare it to the badge shown in King?Kipling, the picture is taken from an other angle and may be it has a "spare wheel", but it is also close to the badge from Denis and that in #10.

Kind regards
Markus
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