Any Info Please

[SandieNZ]

Anything you can tell me about this photo would be appreciated.
We think the chap on the far right is our ancestor.
I know it's not the best imagery, but anything at all about the sleeve markings, approximate date etc would be helpful. (Remember, I'm a complete novice about these things)
Many thanks
Sandie

[tynesideirish]

Not much Cap Badge Identification to be had on the strength of the poor image quality. However;
Due to the apparent age of these men I'd say this was a pic of a QM's store staff. The middle man is an officer, due to his age and familiarity with the other ranks is probably an ex Ranker therefore a Quartermaster.

The chap far left with a single stripe on upper arm is a Lance Corporal with 3 Good Conduct stripes on his lower left arm. above this is an unclear trade badge, usually a letter within laurel leaves. The complete lack of medal ribbons above his left breast pocket is intriguing but may date the pic to about 1926. The remaining soldiers all have ribbons from WW1.

The Sergeant (3 stripes) next to him served post December 1915 as he has no star ribbon.

The other sergeant is a marksman as depicted by the crossed rifles on lower left sleeve. If he was an instructor they would be above his chevrons on the right sleeve.

[Alan O]

If I may - the Sgt may well have been serving prior to Dec 1915. The absence of a star only shows that he was not serving in France by then. He may have been in UK at the time and gone overseas after the qualifying period.

Alan

[Sonofacqms]

From the shape of the badge and thats about all one can go on, it looks like the Beds and Herts Regt, the photo could have been take any time up to 1940.

[Mike]

Beds & Herts: -

[tynesideirish]

Originally Posted by Sonofacqms

the photo could have been take any time up to 1940.

With 3 of them wearing 1914 or 1914/15 star ribbons, and the apparent age range it's unlikely to be any further in date than 1929.

[SandieNZ]

Originally Posted by Sonofacqms

From the shape of the badge and thats about all one can go on, it looks like the Beds and Herts Regt, the photo could have been take any time up to 1940.

The "any time up to 1940" may be of great help... this photo was with another of a soldier sitting on a fortified beachfront - but he had a beret on and not a cap like these chaps. I'll post the picture tonight my time, after work. I read that berets were introduced after 1920 but I'm being told by a realative otherwise and that the photo is not WW2 as I think, but WW1. I'll await your thoughts.

Meantime, thank you all for your input and assistance

Sandie

[BWEF]

"Beret" can be difficult, unless you also give the colour.

Of course, a black beret was worn very early on by the Tank Corps and things went from there.

By the early 1940s the RAC, Airborne, Commandos and SAS were all wearing berets of the well known colours. In late 1942 the motor battalions of the armoured divisions started wearing a khaki beret. At that time most of the rest of the home army were still wearing FS caps (side hats).

They then wore, for a time, a khaki beret TYPE of hat called a "Cap GS", which had seams. By the end of the war, and then post war, berets were fairly universal.

[SandieNZ]

Oh and of course the photo is b&w!! I'm just posting it now under "Unknown Soldier on a Rock". See what you think...

[tynesideirish]

This photo and the one mentioned (Guards Armoured Div) are not the same period. Both of them are not WW1. This one is between the wars pre 1930 and the one mentioned WW2.

You don't have to state they are all family members for ID you know, even if they are!

[Sonofacqms]

Having looked through this thread and noticed that one or two people have picked up on the fact that I mentioned the date 1940. The reason I gave this as a date was that they are all wearing service dress which I believe was worn by some personnel up to around that time. The fact that these men seem mostly to be wearing WWI ribbons could put them in their early forties even up to 1940. They look as though they could be from the QM's store from a regimental depot.
Two men are wearing the field service cap, which I believe was introduced at the same time as battledress which was 1938. This is the reason I put the date of up to 1940.

[tynesideirish]

No problems mate it's just our opinions. Well done to a degree!

However if it was say 1940, and the men joined up aged 18 in 1914 at the outbreak of war (when the criteria regarding underage was much more strict than later war years) That would make them 44 at the youngest, yes possible.

My reasoning was they would have served solidly for at least 26 years... And still sergeants? Worst of all if it was 1940 why would they still be wearing service dress and 1908 belts?

The main thing though I wasn't as clued up as you regarding the FSC introduced in 1937. I'd put a clappy smiley here if I could find one!

So QM's with the JNCO's wearing the new item. It's 1937 lol!

Regards Mike

[BWEF]

Originally Posted by tynesideirish

The main thing though I wasn't as clued up as you regarding the FSC introduced in 1937. I'd put a clappy smiley here if I could find one!

So QM's with the JNCO's wearing the new item. It's 1937 lol!

Regards Mike

Agreed that the FSC came in with battledress, but it was not a new item in the British army. It had been worn in Edwardian times and even, I think, Victorian.

It was also worn in WW1 in limited numbers, mainly by the Royal Flying Corps.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Sonofacqms

Having looked through this thread and noticed that one or two people have picked up on the fact that I mentioned the date 1940. The reason I gave this as a date was that they are all wearing service dress which I believe was worn by some personnel up to around that time. The fact that these men seem mostly to be wearing WWI ribbons could put them in their early forties even up to 1940. They look as though they could be from the QM's store from a regimental depot.
Two men are wearing the field service cap, which I believe was introduced at the same time as battledress which was 1938. This is the reason I put the date of up to 1940.

You beat me to this and I think you are spot on with 1940. SD was still worn by many units in the the BEF in 1940 as the BD was on phased introduction with the iinfantry getting it first. SD was not fully phased out until after Dunkirk. As you say the Khaki FSC gives the game away, as does the wearing of SD caps. From 1943 on the Khaki General Service Cap (GSC) a cross between a beret and a Scottish ToS, started to replace the FSC, which was then phased out.

[Unknownsoldier]

No one else thinking HG??? They wore Black leather belts during the war. That would account for age and ww1 service.

Just throwing thoughts in to the ring.

ATB,
Tom