Royal Dublin Fusiliers Band

[grumpy]

This is all fascinating stuff and really does epitomise why this hobby is so engrossing. I had hoped someone would have access to a regulation or a PVCN to clarify the issue and sure enough you have come up trumps for the officers dress, now we need the same for the ORs. For Bill: I cannot think of another unit that had its own special undress head dress at that time and it is great to reflect that the parsimonious bean counters had to pay for this distinctive regimental dress for the officers, I am just hoping now to see some proof about the ORs issued head dress.

You rang, my Lord?

PVCN 1907 Headdress, caps, forage, with peak item 83

Royal Dublin Fusiliers WO and OR : special blue with scarlet band and welts.

QED.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grumpy

This is all fascinating stuff and really does epitomise why this hobby is so engrossing. I had hoped someone would have access to a regulation or a PVCN to clarify the issue and sure enough you have come up trumps for the officers dress, now we need the same for the ORs. For Bill: I cannot think of another unit that had its own special undress head dress at that time and it is great to reflect that the parsimonious bean counters had to pay for this distinctive regimental dress for the officers, I am just hoping now to see some proof about the ORs issued head dress.

You rang, my Lord?

PVCN 1907 Headdress, caps, forage, with peak item 83

Royal Dublin Fusiliers WO and OR : special blue with scarlet band and welts.

QED.

I am utterly thrilled that you found this Grumpy and thank you for posting it.

It shows that Bill was bang on the money with his wonderful water colour and I was way off beam with my 'theory' that the ORs must have worn cap covers. It also clarifies my query regarding whether red welts and bands were fitted for Royal regiments caps from the outset. I am genuinely sorry that Bill was upset by the theory I expressed, as I meant no disrespect to him, or his superb painting.

This also seems to suggest that there was no 'special' regimental pattern cap, either Brodrick type, or field service cap, for other ranks before the issue of the peaked forage cap in 1907. This latter cap must only have been issued between 1907 and 1922 (with very few indeed required between 1914-1919 - probably just the depot at Naas).

It must make the 1907 pattern RDF forage cap one of the very rarest items of 20th Century British OR head dress, especially given the lack of a fully supported RDF museum and the inevitable apathy towards British Army Irish units that followed partition. I imagine that John Mulcahy and Timo (phaethon) will find this of especial interest too.

[John Mulcahy]

It is certainly interesting to see this post resurrected again.

On the subject of the Gaunt pattern book badge that was noted earlier in this thread as being a possible Blackened badge to 3 RDF. Did I not read somewhere that the badges sold from this Gaunt pattern book were heavily damaged by fire. Could this be the cause of the apparent blackening?

I have yet to see or hear of any evidence that 3 RDF (late Kildare Militia) work blackened insignia. If they did I have yet to see any evidence of them being supplied by the RACD at public expense.

Great to see how much progress has been made on the special pattern forage caps.

John

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by John Mulcahy

It is certainly interesting to see this post resurrected again.

On the subject of the Gaunt pattern book badge that was noted earlier in this thread as being a possible Blackened badge to 3 RDF. Did I not read somewhere that the badges sold from this Gaunt pattern book were heavily damaged by fire. Could this be the cause of the apparent blackening?

I have yet to see or hear of any evidence that 3 RDF (late Kildare Militia) work blackened insignia. If they did I have yet to see any evidence of them being supplied by the RACD at public expense.

John

Still no firm evidence John, but as I said in post #36, I cannot see what other explanation there might be for the black badge and in some cases black buttons, in the OP's post. Specifically the soldier who he showed again, but in isolation, in post #38. It is only the 3rd RDF that had any rifles forebears and they would have had personnel at the depot, so it all tends to fit circumstantially. We just need some documentary evidence. Sadly I never received a reply from the RDF Forum. I am wondering if the National Army Museum might be able to help, as they and RMA Sandhurst were the recipients of the Irish regiments records and artefacts.

I think that 3rd RDF might well have been very proud of their rifles heritage and wearing black badges would have differentiated them from 4th RDF, which I suspect they might have liked. The Irish regiments, as you know, did not have Volunteer Rifle Corps forebears and so no TF battalions with black insignia like so many of the English, Welsh and Scots Line. It seems possible then that they would have made something of what little rifles heritage that they had. All that said, it is purely a hypotheses based on some historical links and blackened insignia in an old photograph. As such it is pure speculation on my part and requires more evidence. Nevertheless, the black RDF badge and black buttons must be in the photo for a reason.

[John Mulcahy]

Toby

The apparent blackened badges & buttons (very much in the minority) relatively late in the regiments existence is certainly intriguing and I can offer no explanation. The clarinet player in post 38 having an apparently blackened badge but GM buttons and titles seems half hearted if he was trying to perpetuate a rifles connection. I remain skeptical that 3RDF perpetuated rifle distinctions, the certainly were obliged to ‘go scarlet” but I remain of open mind and will seek out info now that I am aware of the photo as and when I get time.

Your questions have certainly piqued my curiosity and I managed to do a small amount of research on line yesterday. There is nothing to clarify the main questions but I thought you would find the following interesting, it certainly bears out your opinion that in 1881 the Kildare Rifles were likely none too pleased to be joined to a scarlet coated regiment.

I found on line the report from commissioners, inspectors and others into the militia and the brigade depot system dated 1877. A link to the report is below which is available on google e-books.

A questionnaire was sent to all the COs of the militia battalions of Great Britain and Ireland on August 1st 1876. It is clear reading the questions that the War office was already sounding out the popularity of what was to become the territorial reformation of the Infantry along with the perceived popularity of introducing the Glengarry forage cap as a universal cap for militia battalions.

Whereas the answers represent the opinions of only one man, the CO, there is still some fascinating insight in the responses.
The CO of the Kildare Rifles in 1876 has the following to saw in relation to the popularity of his unit becoming the 3rd or 4th battalion of the line regiments linked to his sub-division, which at the time were the 102nd & 103rd Regiments.

“I do not wish the regiment under my command to be anything other than a rifle regiment. I should much object to my regiment being treated as 3rd or 4th Battalion to the 102nd or 103rd".

You see similar responses from other rifle militias in Ireland; other units are enthusiastic about the prospect. In terms of the R.D.F., the then Dublin City Militia CO is very enthusiastic about becoming a battalion of the line regiments in the district especially if his regiment can become and be clothed as Fusiliers.

The responses of the English, Welsh & Scottish militias are also there if anyone wants to review them. In addition there are many insights into the state and dress of the militia at this time.

John

http://books.google.com/books?id=mzV...ILITIA&f=false

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by John Mulcahy

Toby

The apparent blackened badges & buttons (very much in the minority) relatively late in the regiments existence is certainly intriguing and I can offer no explanation. The clarinet player in post 38 having an apparently blackened badge but GM buttons and titles seems half hearted if he was trying to perpetuate a rifles connection. I remain skeptical that 3RDF perpetuated rifle distinctions, the certainly were obliged to ‘go scarlet” but I remain of open mind and will seek out info now that I am aware of the photo as and when I get time.

Your questions have certainly piqued my curiosity and I managed to do a small amount of research on line yesterday. There is nothing to clarify the main questions but I thought you would find the following interesting, it certainly bears out your opinion that in 1881 the Kildare Rifles were likely none too pleased to be joined to a scarlet coated regiment.

I found on line the report from commissioners, inspectors and others into the militia and the brigade depot system dated 1877. A link to the report is below which is available on google e-books.

A questionnaire was sent to all the COs of the militia battalions of Great Britain and Ireland on August 1st 1876. It is clear reading the questions that the War office was already sounding out the popularity of what was to become the territorial reformation of the Infantry along with the perceived popularity of introducing the Glengarry forage cap as a universal cap for militia battalions.

Whereas the answers represent the opinions of only one man, the CO, there is still some fascinating insight in the responses.
The CO of the Kildare Rifles in 1876 has the following to saw in relation to the popularity of his unit becoming the 3rd or 4th battalion of the line regiments linked to his sub-division, which at the time were the 102nd & 103rd Regiments.

“I do not wish the regiment under my command to be anything other than a rifle regiment. I should much object to my regiment being treated as 3rd or 4th Battalion to the 102nd or 103rd".

You see similar responses from other rifle militias in Ireland; other units are enthusiastic about the prospect. In terms of the R.D.F., the then Dublin City Militia CO is very enthusiastic about becoming a battalion of the line regiments in the district especially if his regiment can become and be clothed as Fusiliers.

The responses of the English, Welsh & Scottish militias are also there if anyone wants to review them. In addition there are many insights into the state and dress of the militia at this time.

John

http://books.google.com/books?id=mzV...ILITIA&f=false

Fascinating stuff John and thank you for the links. It does not surprise me at all that the Rifles Militia CO was not keen to become a Fusilier. There was a certain pecking order to these things and whereas Fusiliers had for a period (18th and early 19th C) been de rigeur, by 1881 they were seen as passe and the Rifle regiments were the new darlings of society.

I too noticed that in the OP's photo the soldier with blackened badge had gm buttons and the man with black buttons had a gm badge. My theory to explain this is simple. I think it likely that in the period immediately post 1881 and then again when the new FSC badges were first issued (probably 1897), the CO of the 'new' 3rd Bn RDF had probably persuaded the Regimental Colonel and Army Dress Committee (or its equivalent of that time) that as a proud former Rifle regiment the 3rd battalion should be allowed to wear black insignia. They would certainly not have been the only scarlet jacketed regiment to have a battalion with black insignia. 6th Kings and 6th East Surreys being two others that I can think of (although both were former VRC rather than militia).

However, by 1914 the regiment (RDF) would have had ample time to bed itself in and establish a new 'Fusilier' corporate identity. Many of the old Rifles militiamen would have retired and any remaining Rifles 'sentiment' would have perhaps been much diluted. Add to that any difficulties with supply and I think that what we are seeing is the dieing embers of a Rifles fire that has almost expired, with just a few militia (special reserve) men still wearing 'old' insignia as it was all that was available (hence perhaps the mixed aspect). Certainly there is rarely any smoke without fire!

[phaethon]

Here is my today's arrival:

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by phaethon

Here is my today's arrival:

Superb badge Timo and together with your bandsman's pouch badge you have a set of incredibly rare insignia. I hope that the RDF Museum realise just how much you have done/are doing to resurrect the memory of this proud old regiment.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by John Mulcahy

Toby

The apparent blackened badges & buttons (very much in the minority) relatively late in the regiments existence is certainly intriguing and I can offer no explanation. The clarinet player in post 38 having an apparently blackened badge but GM buttons and titles seems half hearted if he was trying to perpetuate a rifles connection. I remain skeptical that 3RDF perpetuated rifle distinctions, the certainly were obliged to ‘go scarlet” but I remain of open mind and will seek out info now that I am aware of the photo as and when I get time.

Your questions have certainly piqued my curiosity and I managed to do a small amount of research on line yesterday. There is nothing to clarify the main questions but I thought you would find the following interesting, it certainly bears out your opinion that in 1881 the Kildare Rifles were likely none too pleased to be joined to a scarlet coated regiment.

I found on line the report from commissioners, inspectors and others into the militia and the brigade depot system dated 1877. A link to the report is below which is available on google e-books.

A questionnaire was sent to all the COs of the militia battalions of Great Britain and Ireland on August 1st 1876. It is clear reading the questions that the War office was already sounding out the popularity of what was to become the territorial reformation of the Infantry along with the perceived popularity of introducing the Glengarry forage cap as a universal cap for militia battalions.

Whereas the answers represent the opinions of only one man, the CO, there is still some fascinating insight in the responses.
The CO of the Kildare Rifles in 1876 has the following to saw in relation to the popularity of his unit becoming the 3rd or 4th battalion of the line regiments linked to his sub-division, which at the time were the 102nd & 103rd Regiments.

“I do not wish the regiment under my command to be anything other than a rifle regiment. I should much object to my regiment being treated as 3rd or 4th Battalion to the 102nd or 103rd".

You see similar responses from other rifle militias in Ireland; other units are enthusiastic about the prospect. In terms of the R.D.F., the then Dublin City Militia CO is very enthusiastic about becoming a battalion of the line regiments in the district especially if his regiment can become and be clothed as Fusiliers.

The responses of the English, Welsh & Scottish militias are also there if anyone wants to review them. In addition there are many insights into the state and dress of the militia at this time.

John

http://books.google.com/books?id=mzV...ILITIA&f=false

John, further to my earlier response to this post (above) I have just found an added snippet of information that might be evidence towards my hypothesis. In Colin Churchills new book on the British infantry collar badges and under the RDF Militia section he writes: "On 1st July 1881 the Kildare Rifles Militia became the 3rd Battalion, the Royal Dublin Fusiliers and in Rifle tradition did not wear collar badges."

As I said above I think that by 1914 what we were seeing metaphorically is the dieing embers of the old Rifle's fire, with insignia being wasted out.

[jembo]

Pipe and regimental bands of 2Bn The Royal Dublin Fusiliers.
http://st.louis.irish.tripod.com/irishwarpipe/id39.html

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by jembo

Pipe and regimental bands of 2Bn The Royal Dublin Fusiliers.
http://st.louis.irish.tripod.com/irishwarpipe/id39.html

Very interesting jembo. Thank you for posting

One small error that does not in any way detract from the article but that nonetheless you might wish to correct is the description of the fur cap grenade. Rather than the elephant and tiger on a grenade of the forage cap and collar badges, the fur cap grenade bore the Arms of the City of Dublin. See enclosed images.

[John Mulcahy]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Very interesting jembo. Thank you for posting

One small error that does not in any way detract from the article but that nonetheless you might wish to correct is the description of the fur cap grenade. .

I agree , especially as the author has been conscientious and noted references elsewhere. The sign of someone who cares about the information they provide.

John

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by John Mulcahy

I agree , especially as the author has been conscientious and noted references elsewhere. The sign of someone who cares about the information they provide.

John

John did you not see my post #54 for you above?

I also posted something for you in the thread (the last post) re shamrock badge backings, but got no response.