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#46
18-04-20, 04:22 PM
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I find it useful to remember that the grenade worn on the arm by some GG soldiers had nothing [or next to nothing] to do with substantive rank and pay, but was a regimental badge akin to Household cavalry crowns and cavalry regiments various arm badges. I recall that the cavalry extended their badges down to corporals in some regiments, but usually were for SNCOs. Thus the question in my mind is not why soldiers wore these badges in SD, battledress and later, but why some wore rank [or appointment] chevrons without the grenade. We know that some did exactly that from photographic evidence. Do they still? Lance appointments were never ranks, but some were paid an enhancement over substantive corporal, some merely received corporal pay. In general, lance sergeant appointments ceased in 1946 but were retained by all foot guards who, before that date, but after the Great War, had admitted all substantive corporals to the sergeants' mess. In scarlet tunics, the distinction between a substantive corporal [paid as a corporal] automatically appointed LSgt was and is clear: three white chevrons and no sash, [as opposed to gold and a sash] In battledress and later equivalents there may have been a need to distinguish the senior and junior ranks ...... did one have a metal grenade and one a worsted one [as Household Cavalry do with crowns], or did the senior have a grenade and the junior no grenade? Either way, both would be addressed as "sergeant" by all ranks. What, therefore, do we make of photographs of GGs with two chevrons only? Clearly corporals of sorts, clearly to be addressed as corporal, and clearly above Gdsn. Are there still such soldiers, and are there GGs with three chevrons and no grenade? More questions than answers. PS. Current Dress Regs: Sergeants, corporals and lance corporals of GREN GDS are to wear a worsted grenade above the chevrons on the No 2 Dress jacket. In terms of badges this equates to: three chevrons and grenade [=Sgt, paid as substantive Sgt], three chevrons and grenade [= LSgt, paid as substantive Cpl]], two chevrons and grenade [paid as substantive LCpl now that LCpl is a rank and no longer an appointment for a Gdsn]. And probably has been since 1902, except for the early period when some corporals had not been automatically made LSgt. This leaves unanswered the problem of GGs with two chevrons and no grenade in Great War period photographs. Last edited by grumpy; 18-04-20 at 10:11 PM. Reason: addenda 
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#47
19-04-20, 08:36 AM
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Grumpy I fear we are going in circles here.
I have no idea why the Grenadier Guards chose to have the system of arm badges slightly different to the other Foot Guards at that time, but it seems from indisputable visual that they did, and the use of swords was already unique anyway. The following then referring to ‘khaki’ orders of dress only. Lance Corporal - 2 stripes no grenade (appointment) Corporal - 2 stripes with grenade above (substantive rank) Lance Sergeant - 3 stripes no grenade (appointment) Sergeant - 3 stripes grenade above (substantive rank) Total: two substantive ranks and two appointments below colour sergeant (who remember was in the 8-company system the top man, so the 4 positions below presumably supported that). Some of the those in appointments were paid but the majority not. After 1964 all at Lance Corporal level across the army made a substantive rank, and for all less Foot Guards the title Lance Sergeant abolished, resulting in: Corporal - 2 stripes with grenade above (rank, but functioning in the role of the old Lance Corporal in a battalion approximately half the size it used to be). Lance Sergeant - 3 stripes with grenade above (rank, but functioning in the role of the old Corporal whilst being a Sgts’ Mess member). Sergeant - 3 stripes with grenade over (rank, functioning in traditional role of an infantry sergeant). Total: Three substantive ranks now below Colour Sergeant, but aligned with rest of infantry and reflecting a smaller battalion overall. No longer any unpaid appointments, everyone financially remunerated and pensioned for their rank and efforts. Upshot and outcome: no longer a requirement for a Lance Corporal ‘Title’ and therefore perceived by the regiment that 2 stripes without grenade is obsolete and thus abolished. Although titled Lance Sergeant this is a substantive position and so the grenade was adopted. Last edited by Toby Purcell; 19-04-20 at 12:23 PM.
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#48
19-04-20, 09:17 AM
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Toby, you are close to agreeing with me, except for:
Lance Corporal - 2 stripes no grenade (appointment) which I assume is 1902 onwards. Other than a few photos taken in the Great War, there is little evidence that GG persisted with two chevrons but no grenade after 1918, and no evidence at all regarding whether the wearer was, for example, "acting" or not. We simply do not "know". and modern Sergeant - 3 stripes with swords and grenade etc over which I believe to be wrong, the swords grenade [and crown] being a relic of the colour badge worn by colour sergeants and [after 1914] WO IIs.
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#49
19-04-20, 10:00 AM
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I meant to say that I did wonder if perhaps the Lance Sergeants of WW1 were also without grenade above stripes, as then there would have been some logic. I shall search around. You are quite right of course about the crossed swords and that was an error on my part when in full flow....
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#50
19-04-20, 11:02 AM
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Eureka! I’ve found a photo from a famous series taken when a young Edward Prince of Wales was on route march with 1st Bn Grenadier Guards that clearly shows a sergeant in side view without grenade above his 3-stripes. To me it confirms that both of the non-substantive, Lance appointments, were differentiated by the absence of a grenade above their stripes.
As all ranks are now substantive it makes sense that the practice ceased. As it was a purely regimental thing it would not have appeared in generic dress regulations or documentation outside the then Brigade of Guards. I enclose a photo of a Lance Corporal and full Sergeant side-by-side, and the Lance Sergeant on the march (notice the Corporal with grenade beyond him). Also a WW2 era IWM photo of a 1st Bn Grenadier Guards, King’s Company Lance Corporal with 2-stripes, no grenade. NB. I’ve slightly amended my post above in light of this. Last edited by Toby Purcell; 19-04-20 at 12:20 PM.
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#51
19-04-20, 07:25 PM
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#52
26-04-20, 01:35 PM
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Andy
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Leave to carry on Sir please.
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#53
27-04-20, 12:06 AM
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#54
27-04-20, 10:23 PM
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Andy
__________________
Leave to carry on Sir please.
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#55
29-04-20, 09:19 PM
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I have written to the Curator asking for help and will report back. It would be good to know the truth, which may well have been researched by proper historians.
Oh! to meet a GG RSM or RQMS of 1916! [Perhaps even an Adjt .........] https://www.greatwarforum.org/blogs/...s-junior-ncos/ Last edited by grumpy; 29-04-20 at 09:26 PM.
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#56
05-05-20, 01:35 PM
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Precis of correspondence with Gary Gibbs, Curator Guards Museum:
Gary Gibbs says that I have done an excellent job in preparing my paper regarding my theory of badge/ rank structure for GG on SD, more than he could possibly find, and there is nothing that he can add. There is nothing in the GG Order Books on the subject of grenades over rank or appointment badges on SD in the Great War. The captioned watercolours of Lance appointments in Hannings’ book on the GG, on which my case partly relies, hang in the Officers’ Mess, there was no further information. Gibbs took all the photographs for the book.
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