The Loyal Regiment QE2 byJ.R.Gaunt London

[kingsman]

A/A badges. As a serving member of 1/Loyals '57 t0 '59 it would appear that these were issued at Fulwood Barracks to squaddies who subsequently joined the Bn. in Malaya. On going to the training (S) company they were confiscated and destroyed by our friendly SM's who did not want such rubbish in their Regiment. All sent to QM's to purchase at 3/9d a bimetal badge we were still using stocks of the KC version with both hairpin and L sliders.
This would probably be late '58 or early '59 when badge was withdrawn and replaced by brigade badge.
I note that following the demise of the Brigade System circa 1969 the 1st Battalion reverted to wearing the regimental badge for a short period prior to amalgamation with POWV in 1970.
There were some photo's of pre amalgamation groups on the now defunct Friends Reunited website all of whom were wearing Loyals cap badges.
I was in contact with a guy who insisted he wore a KC version of an unrecognised pattern badge which he retained this badge was also depicted on FR.
A lot of collectors don't rate the BIM QC badge but I wonder.

[Mike H]

I need to catch up here .
QLR officers bullion beret badge was the cloth version of the collar badge with red rose.Rather than the cap badge.
The Lancashire Regt (pwv) collar was the generic POW feathers badge.As worn by Royal Hussars in No2's,Wilts Yeo,Cheshire Yeo. Not the S.Lancs collar with the 3 sided PWV scroll.
The 1994 QLR badge ,isnt that the new design with the red crowned rose rather the original QLR badge ?
Ive noted that Chris states :- PWV collar badge and Loyals cap badge.Which would appear to infer that the Loyals badge came back into use .

[Paul Spellman]

Originally Posted by hagwalther

Hi Iain,

That reconciles with the date of sealing from the pattern card of the A/A cap badge of the Queen’s Lancashire Regiment on 28th Nov 1969 (sometimes things took a while to get going).

Note: this badge was also resealed 27th April 1994 and 6th Aug 1997. There is even another pattern card for the A/A cap badge of the Queen’s Lancashire Regiment sealed 23 July 1981 with a special note of 'CANCELLED' written on it.

This is from page 529 of my book re: Queen's Lancashire Regt for those without a copy:

1. At the 192nd Meeting of the Army Dress Committee, held on 17th June 1969, the Committee decided to approve the sketch design (No. 0.2753) of the cap badge for The Queen’s Lancashire Regiment: Badge, Cap in gold A/A for soldiers. This badge to replace the following:
a) Badge, Organisation, Lancastrian Brigade, A/A, Cap (CB 8455-99-974-1096).
b) Badge, Collar, The South Lancashire Regiment (Prince of Wales’s Volunteers), A/A, (CB 8099) in use as a cap badge.
c) Badge, Organisation, The Loyal Regiment (North Lancashire), A/A, Cap (CB 8455-99-973-9430).
2. At the 195th Meeting of the Army Dress Committee, held on 27th October 1969, the Committee decided to approve the finished samples of the cap badge for The Queen’s Lancashire Regiment: soldiers; gold A/A; sketch design No. 0.2753.
3. This badge is often found with a red rose. Such examples were probably ‘painted up’ and used by officers, unofficially, as a replacement for the officially authorised item being: Badge, Cap in bright polished gilt, with a red enamelled rose, for officers; sketch design No. 0.2753. The officers piece in polished gilt was also approved at the 195th Meeting of the Army Dress Committee.

Note item no 1. b) above where a collar badge of the The South Lancashire Regiment (Prince of Wales’s Volunteers) together with its CB No. is being used as a cap badge...

With Iain's documentation and the Army Dress Committee I think we can honestly say that the The South Lancashire Regiment (Prince of Wales’s Volunteers) did wear a collar badge as a cap badge.

Regards,

Chris

Mike,
On the ADC Chris posted it states South Lancs Collar.
????
Paul

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by bess55

Gents, I can confirm ACF wore the QLR cap badge anodised with a painted red rose, mounted on the elongated yellow plastic diamond backing. Obtained from a fellow cadet in another unit about 1982 ish - I still have it.

I concur with Andy - the AA badge would not have been worn as a replacement by commissioned officers.

Regards to all

Bess

Hi Bess,

I have updated my notes.

Please excuse the word 'probably' re: ACF bit. As I do not have official documentation stating that the ACF wore this badge such qualification needs to be made.

1. At the 192nd Meeting of the Army Dress Committee, held on 17th June 1969, the Committee decided to approve the sketch design (No. 0.2753) of the cap badge for The Queen’s Lancashire Regiment: Badge, Cap in gold A/A for soldiers. This badge to replace the following:
a) Badge, Organisation, Lancastrian Brigade, A/A, Cap (CB 8455-99-974-1096).
b) Badge, Collar, The South Lancashire Regiment (Prince of Wales’s Volunteers), A/A, (CB 8099) in use as a cap badge.
c) Badge, Organisation, The Loyal Regiment (North Lancashire), A/A, Cap (CB 8455-99-973-9430).
2. At the 195th Meeting of the Army Dress Committee, held on 27th October 1969, the Committee decided to approve the finished samples of the cap badge for The Queen’s Lancashire Regiment: soldiers; gold A/A; sketch design No. 0.2753. At the same meeting, the officers piece, in bright polished gilt with a red enamelled rose, was approved to sketch design No. 0.2753.
3. This badge is often found with a painted red rose. Such examples were probably used by affiliated units of the local Army Cadet Force.

Regards,

Chris

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by Paul Spellman

Mike,
On the ADC Chris posted it states South Lancs Collar.
????
Paul

It does Paul, but the South Lancs didn't exist and hadn't for 10 or 11 years. I believe that its an error,by who ever typed the notes up. The regiment it should refer to is the Lancashire Regt (PWV) which was the amalgam of the East and South Lancs Regts.
The South Lancs collar is a very rare anodised collar badge,even if it was worn for a few years then there would be far more around than there are . I know of one person who has one,bearing in mind that they aren't a facing pair either.
David Griffin states in "Modern British Army Regiments" "the brigade sytem was dissolved and 1968 and superseded by larger groups called divisions."
Under the heading Kings Division we have the following Regts.
"The Kings Own Royal Borders
The Kings
The Prince of Wales Own Regt of Yorkshire
The Green Howards
The Royal Irish Rangers
The Lancashire Regt *
The Duke of Wellingtons Regt
The Loyal Regt * "

[Mike H]

Paul, ive just found a post from last year that Badjez posted on this subject .
http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...d.php?p=320851

There is says Lancashire (PWV) not South Lancashire (PWV).
Churchill`s early collar badge book shows No.296 Lancashire Regt as the plain PoW feathers badge I mentioned earlier

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by Mike H

It does Paul, but the South Lancs didn't exist and hadn't for 10 or 11 years. I believe that its an error,by who ever typed the notes up. The regiment it should refer to is the Lancashire Regt (PWV) which was the amalgam of the East and South Lancs Regts.
The South Lancs collar is a very rare anodised collar badge,even if it was worn for a few years then there would be far more around than there are . I know of one person who has one,bearing in mind that they aren't a facing pair either.
David Griffin states in "Modern British Army Regiments" "the brigade sytem was dissolved and 1968 and superseded by larger groups called divisions."
Under the heading Kings Division we have the following Regts.
"The Kings Own Royal Borders
The Kings
The Prince of Wales Own Regt of Yorkshire
The Green Howards
The Royal Irish Rangers
The Lancashire Regt *
The Duke of Wellingtons Regt
The Loyal Regt * "

Hi Mike,

I'm revisiting the official doco right now but I have to go away for a few days in an hours time.

The doco may be a 'catch up' of existing practice even if 10 years out of date but when I know more I will post here.

Regards,

Chris

[Alan O]

Not my area normally but I found this Loyals a/a. Never seen one before.

[49lassiepen]

ALAN -i have both types with the red rose and un coloured rose
David

[hagwalther]

Hi Guys,

I have revisited certain official documentation and have noted an error of my making.

Chapter 18 - A Confusion of Cadets

page 179 should read:

"...due to administrative and supply difficulties is was not unknown for regular units to wear, as an interim measure, anodised aluminium collar badges in place of anodised aluminium cap badges. Examples documented in Appendix 4 - Authorised Cap Badges include The Duke of Edinburgh’s Royal Regiment (Berkshire and Wiltshire), The King’s Regiment, The Lancashire Regiment (Prince of Wales’s Volunteers). Such a practise also extended to those cadet force units that were affiliated to The Royal Anglian Regiment and this is recorded in the 244th Meeting of the Army Dress Committee, held on 17th December 1979. The Committee had agreed that the battalions of The Royal Anglian Regiment were to wear new design anodised aluminium collar badges instead of the currently worn collar badges of The Royal Anglian Regiment:..."


In Appendix 4:

a) For the entries for The Queens Lancashire Regiment - this entry should read under 1.b)

Badge, Collar, The Lancashire Regiment (Prince of Wales’s Volunteers), A/A, (CB 8099) in use as a cap badge.

b) For both the South Lancashire Regiment (Prince of Wales’s Volunteers) entries ([Large] and [Small]) all references to the collar badge should be removed.

Thanks to Mike H in pointing this out.

Note: Regardless of the 1958 date of demise of the South Lancashire Regt. official doco still records this unit badge in the CCN of 1963 and also in:

Annex A to Eastern Command, dated 25th November 1966, including 1. Prices for Regular and Territorial Army cap badges. Labelled 118A, file WO 32/20561, the National Archives, Kew, London.

For all purchasers of my book - I will be sending out new, updated PDF versions of the affected pages and hopefully this will be completed by the end of next week - I have an email list of all person who have purchased a copy of my book.

For those who may have obtained a copy of my book via trade, favour etc. please contact me for the updated pages - I will supply to these person following the purchasers update.

For those who do not have a copy but would like to look though the updated pages for interest sake please also contact me as required.


The substitution of Lancashire Regt with South Lancashire Regt is regretted.

Regards,

Chris

[Mike H]

Chris,im sure the 4th South Lancs existed after the demise of the regular Regt and became part of the Lancastrian Volunteers in the late 60`s. This would tie in with the badge still existing post 1963 as your notes have mentioned.

[Paul Spellman]

Originally Posted by Mike H

Chris,im sure the 4th South Lancs existed after the demise of the regular Regt and became part of the Lancastrian Volunteers in the late 60`s. This would tie in with the badge still existing post 1963 as your notes have mentioned.

Hi Mike,
The 4th Bn South Lancs as well as the 4th Bn East Lancs both became part of the Lancashire Regt PoWV in July 1958 but with no title change.
On 1/4/67 they were both disbanded and reconstituted as 1 Coy of the Lancashire Regt PoWV under TAVR ii ending the use of the SLancs And E.Lancs Badges by the TA.
There is a possibility the SLancs badge may have been worn a short while after Apr 1967 by either CCF units of Liverpool Collegiate School-King Williams College IoM or the ACF Farnworth St.Aidans School Widnes before affiliations were changed but I do not know of any dates for these.
I found the attached in an article yesterday from March 1958 which would also confirm the collar badge design albeit awaiting approvals
Paul

[Paul Spellman]

I also came across this image of Brig Whalley-Kelly taken 21st November 1958 in Hong Kong post the presentation of the new colours to the Lancashire PoWV thus post amalgamation wearing the collars still of the S.Lancs Regt, it appears that he was the only Soldier that day to be wearing Collar badges but if you are the Colonel of the Regt and writer of part of the Regimental history you wear what ever you like,
Paul

[Peter Brydon]

Paul,

Your comments on the possibility of Cadets continuing to wear the old South Lancs badge are most interesting.

I have a photo of the cadets of the Liverpool Collegiate wearing the badge of the South Lancashire Regiment but it is not dated.

In the old Liverpool Scottish Museum ( at Botanic Road ) there was a Liverpool Collegiate cadets battledress blouse on display which was from the time of the affiliation with the Liverpool Scottish, a picture is attached but I don't know the date.

With regard to King Williams College (IOM ) CCF, I wonder if the absence of an anodised version of their own cap badge was because they had adopted the badge of the Regiment they were affiliated to ?

Peter

[Mike H]

Thanks Gents for all your input on this.Hopefully one day,we will know what was worn when and by whom. Then all our display labelling can be 100% correct.