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  #61  
Old 14-09-17, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan O View Post
There is no correlation between a/a collars and cap badges. Collars were often sealed and made in a/a long before cap badges as stocks of collars were often smaller, and thus used up faster, than cap badges. Same goes for a/a buttons.
Quite right Alan. To correlate collars with badges is quite foolish and if one reads Army Dress Committee minutes one will find that seldom (if ever) are the two authorised at the same time.

Regards,

Chris
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  #62  
Old 14-09-17, 07:21 PM
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No, you cant correlate the two obviously as there are many anodised buttons made with Kings Crown etc, that never had an anodised badge to go with it.

However, if we think that the 9th Lancers wore the anodised collar with a usual metal cap badge then fine. If anyone can put flesh on those bones it would be interesting. Ditto for the 12L.

My point was - as the suspicion is that the anodised 9L is 'fake' then to go to the lengths of 'faking' a collar is unusual and may tend to make us view the cap badge in a less spurious light.

So are we saying the 9L collars are good? If they are, then that would clear up that question.
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  #63  
Old 14-09-17, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by bess55 View Post
No, you cant correlate the two obviously as there are many anodised buttons made with Kings Crown etc, that never had an anodised badge to go with it.

However, if we think that the 9th Lancers wore the anodised collar with a usual metal cap badge then fine. If anyone can put flesh on those bones it would be interesting. Ditto for the 12L.

My point was - as the suspicion is that the anodised 9L is 'fake' then to go to the lengths of 'faking' a collar is unusual and may tend to make us view the cap badge in a less spurious light.

So are we saying the 9L collars are good? If they are, then that would clear up that question.
Hi Bess,

If I remember the order of changing from non-AA to AA was first buttons followed by collars and then badges. This was not a 100% rule but can be viewed as a general approach to the transfer of one metal form to the other.

Although I ignored collars in my work on A/A cap badges I am currently going through the ADC meeting minutes from the original WODC meetings to current day. Problem is that I don't have a lot of time at the moment but I will look out for 9th and 12th Lancers items to see if collars were authorised.

Hopefully I have not already passed such information.

Regards,

Chris
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  #64  
Old 14-09-17, 08:44 PM
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Hi Chris - thank you, that may well answer the 9L & 12L collar question, if not the 9L cap badge.

In fact, what that leads onto then, is how many Regiments are there who had anodised alluminium collars issued but never had the anodised cap badge? Its an interesting area.

Anyone think of any? Must be one or two.

Last edited by bess55; 14-09-17 at 08:47 PM. Reason: spelling error
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  #65  
Old 14-09-17, 08:54 PM
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Very interesting question Bess
Id say Suffolk rgt.
But i cant say 100 % that the anodised cap is not genuine and the collar badges were produced for the Suffolk and Cambridge TA and not the regular Btn of the Suffolk regt.
Possibly East Yorkshire, again i dont know 100% if the very flat star collars were made for the East Yorks or the PWO during the Brigade period.
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  #66  
Old 17-09-17, 08:56 PM
bess55 bess55 is offline
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Thanks Mike.

Interestingly MOD docket WO32/16956 is the anodised badge policy documemt which runs from 1957 - 1965, but initial minutes are copies of a Branch memoranda docket dated 1951 - comprising of a cover letter from J R Gaunt which accompanied 2 sample RASC anodised cap badges sent to the War Office.

This docket covers aspects of anodised badge manufacture and trials (cap, collar, trade and rank) and is to a certain extent a snap shot of the genus of anodised badge implementation throughout this period. There was a clear drive to 'anodise' all regiments and corps.

Although there is little specific mention individual regiments in any comprehensive manner, there is some valuable and interesting information. There are some listed returns and commentary from the Guards Brigade which is a little conflicting, but suffice to say that they were unpopular with Guards Bn's.

There is no specific mention of which badges are to be introduced first - i.e. cap or collar - or indeed which were rolled out first to individual regiments. However a review memo dated Nov 1964 quotes anodisation completion as follows:-

cap - 60%
collar - 70%
button - 50% - (becoming 100% later that year)

Whilst there is no specific mention of the 9L, there is mention of difficulties in manufacturing the 9/12L cap badge. Interestingly this memo is dated over a year before the actual amalgamation in 1960.

All the above for interests sake gents.

Hopefully Chris may uncover some data that may add light to the 9L anodised badges question.

Regards all

Bess
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  #67  
Old 17-09-17, 09:05 PM
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Ive read part of that document Bess. There were plenty of complaint letters from the Guards.
Brasso and anodised aluminium doesnt mix well.
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  #68  
Old 18-09-17, 04:34 AM
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Hi Guys,

The document is a good start re: AA cap badges but there are lots more in the Kew Archives and other documents around the UK in museums etc. worth looking at.

The complaints about the Grenadier Guards badges were not entertained by Gaunt as it seems some were stamped on and hence this was the reason they became scratched.

With regard to Lancers badges. If I remember there were very difficult and expensive to make and it came to a point where manufacturers were not interested in making them. This may explain why I could find no info on the 9th Lancers.

I don't have a copy of my book with me at the mo but if I remember all Bess and Mike's comments are also written up in the Preface or Chapter 1.

Regards,

Chris
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  #69  
Old 18-09-17, 09:21 AM
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Erm, I have one of these HLI badges and to throw a spanner in the works. I got it off of the shelf in shed D2 at COD Bicester in 1983 during a stock reconciliation task. They were obsolescent and marked for disposal so I had one (I was a kid at the time and knew little about badges or I would have half inched the other 7 or so on the shelf!). So I don't know know about unauthorised, but having a part number, being held in the Army depot and me getting it from there sort of makes it official to me. I did also let Chris know about this when I contacted him about another supposed fake - the Gordons with BY DAND instead of BYDAND, again I got mine off the shelf in the depot.
Was this deemed real or fake in the end?
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  #70  
Old 18-09-17, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan O View Post
An badge that was not authorised for production for the Norfolk Yeomanry.

It has been suggested that it was actually used by Royal parks staff and the like.

Firmin maker's mark.

Die cast reverse.
Hi

This badge was worn by the Norfolk Army Cadet Force which I was attached to in 1959-60 period. There were two Army Cadet Forces in the area and the unit wore the Britannia badge.

Regards
Arthur
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  #71  
Old 20-09-17, 12:48 PM
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Arthur

Thank you that's very interesting. Can I confirm that they were wearing it in a/a as the parent Gunner Bty seems to have been wearing the brass version in the 1950s?

Alan
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  #72  
Old 20-09-17, 07:32 PM
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Alan,

We were definitely wearing the a/a version of the badge. The only brass we cleaned was on the belt and anklets.

Regards
Arthur
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  #73  
Old 21-09-17, 11:12 AM
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Alan,

We were definitely wearing the a/a version of the badge. The only brass we cleaned was on the belt and anklets.

Regards
Arthur
Did you wear collar badges Arthur ?
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  #74  
Old 21-09-17, 07:44 PM
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Hi Mike

No collar badges. The old style uniform with a rounded yellow felt arc with black embroidered Norfolk. Underneath was another yellow felt arc with black embroidered A.C.F. From what I recall it had straight edges! Mid shoulder was a linen khaki rectangle with a dark blue 2 printed in the centre and we also wore a white lanyard which wasn't the single cord type.

Regards
Arthur
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  #75  
Old 22-09-17, 09:50 AM
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Was this deemed real or fake in the end?
I see from Chris's collection site that this is deemed a fake.
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