MAKER MARKS

[Charlie585]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Chris,

Wow! What a theory.... then any old Joe could go out and publish a wonky old book on dubious badges listing examples that were never ever officially produced and then have them made, add wrong makers marks or just leave them blank!!! Starting a trend to collect Mickey Mouse badges which people would be willing to pay a lot of money for!

What sort of Wankr would do such a thing?

Andy

Hi Andy, gents,

The plot thickens! Would someone up to a scam like this not have to have some kind of official record of the badges like sealed pattern cards or the CCN or COSA documents.

Or would it be possible for them to pass off fakes of these too. Given the amount that the recent blank slidered AA RB badge went for on EBay it seems it could certainly be worth their while.

Regards

Ry

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by Charlie585

Hi Andy, gents,

The plot thickens! Would someone up to a scam like this not have to have some kind of official record of the badges like sealed pattern cards or the CCN or COSA documents.

Or would it be possible for them to pass off fakes of these too. Given the amount that the recent blank slidered AA RB badge went for on EBay it seems it could certainly be worth their while.

Regards

Ry

Hi Ry,

I'm pretty sure I know what was officially authorised although a few more documents would help - look under the bed people for the CCN of 1960 and COSA of 1978 if you get a mo. Unfortunately for the collecting community I am probably (but along with my peer reviewers) the only person who has this information.

Yes, watch out for blank slidered A/A badges.

BUT

Not all blank slidered badges are dodgy and not all marked slider badges are good.

SO

If you are going to spend more than say a tenner on a badge then contact me first for my opinion.

Regards

Chris

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by hagwalther

Well you can Andy but you will always get caught out...

I suppose it all depends on how one values one's reputation.

Regards

Chris

Chris,
I value my reputation as a Gentleman as a priority.... but I'd rather be able to buy and sell without comeback, unlike some wasters who are also members of this Forum!

The message for 2011 must be to get real and HONEST or else be prepared to be "outed". Serious collectors are not prepared to put up with liars who constanly tweek descriptions to sell their questionable items!

I am a great supporter of this Forum but very reluctant to go along with the apparent reluctance to expose those who are less than honest!

Please let this Forum be the domain of the Honest and not visited by the liars who polute our hobby!

Andy

[Charlie585]

Thanks Chris,

A worthy offer that I shall bear in mind.

"Just as you thought it was safe to go back into the water"!

Having read some of the situation regarding the pitfalls of the hobby prior to becoming a member of the forum and at around the same time a serious collector. I was happy in the assumption that my initial areas of interest were pretty safe bets.

The first being RE, I had assumed that the badges of the corps given the numbers of originals produced would be rarely faked. In the main this appears to be the case apart from the lugged or flat economy GV OR's version or a few examples of the GV1 OR's. There are of course the Militia badges which I won't dwell on here.

Secondly the RB, where copies of the WW2 era badge are easy to spot on the whole and the same with the LRB cadets badge. I know there are other fakes but on a personal level I believe I have managed to avoid these with some degree of success.

As far as AA badges go I had only ever intended to collect those that were necessary to complete an album from my collecting sphere, RB and RE as well as single examples of the badges to those units that I have served alongside.

However, given the level I have collected to so far and the fact that future additions to these collections will be the rarer or more valuable items.

It did cross my mind that AA badges may not be such a bad proposition to persue between major purchases.
After all they will we assume become more attractive to collectors with the passage of time due to recent and future changes in the army structure and of course an eventual envisaged crown change.

Added to this is the possibility of picking up some of the rarer early examples.

So much then for my assumption that a collection of AA badges would be plain sailing!

I look forward to the publication of your work on these badges Chris and having a definitive reference. If as has been stated that until now, collectors have had to rely on less than accurate or honest reference material it will be a pleasure to see these works dismissed as the fantasies that they are evidently being viewed as.

Regards

Ry

[Charlie585]

Further to the above, I agree with Andy’s statement about getting real and honest and I’m sure there will be some red faces and some humble pie to be eaten in the not too distant future, regardless of the official opinion or perceived lack of it on the forum.

On the other hand there are going to be some broken hearts along the way.

To have a badge that you believe to be genuine and valuable dismissed for what is really is, given verifiable evidence, is going to be a bitter pill for some of us to swallow!

I suppose that if our hobby is to continue we will just have to be brave and take our medicine.

I have at least two badges myself that have been the subject of questions that I really wish to be genuine but where doubt has been expressed there will always be the risk of some expensive disappointment.

In the long run though for collector and dealer ( although some of them may take some persuading that one of their own is acting dishonestly) alike, the benefits of an honest hobby can only be a good thing.

Continued research and verification of the badges that we collect is the key and to be fair, the forum is the place where the results of this work are disseminated.

I have said before that the forum has the potential to be the ultimate reference for the hobby. At the time I was referring literally to it being just such a thing, no mean task!

However, regardless of recently expressed opinions, the forum is already the focal point for such a reference.

Take this thread for example, the type/depth of discussion that can be developed from a simple question on makers marks on sliders is a case in point.(My apologies of course if anyone thinks that this is too far off thread)

The dodgy dealers etc will though I’m sure continue to be outed if such discussion is allowed and actively encouraged by contribution form the membership.

Keep the faith gents and the keep speaking to each other, its surprising what can be achieved or discovered when there is collective will and correspondence!

Ry

[hagwalther]

Hi Ry,

If you have anything that you need checking send me an email on my gmail address.

When I have time I will set up a thread on dodgy A/A and what to look for but such a thread will take approx. 4-5 hours to do images etc.

It actually is not that hard when you know what to look for but for Gawd's sake don't nobody out there on the forum go buying 50 quid badges from eBay if you are not 100% sure:

a) if the badge was officially authorised in A/A

b) if it is not a dodgy unofficial commission

Regards

Chris

[KLR]

For the period 1903 to mid 1916 there is information about government badge contracts in the archives of one manufacturing company but it does mention competitors.
For the period 1939 to 1946 there are extensive government lists for badge manufcturing contracts.

These sources are publically available though I'm searching for others !
None of these sources, however, shed any light on makers mark's - though they do help to identify which makers were making what.
I would guess - the research would take a lot of time - that statistically there were more other ranks cap badges with maker's marks produced after 1946.

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Alan,
I beg to differ on this statement! Makers Marks on the sliders of Genuine pre anodised badges are far less common than you suggest!

Andy

If you read my thread it says POST WW2 ie late 1940s and 1950s - that means 'after' WW2. Indeed where badges can be dated to POST WW2, namely genuine Q/C and post 1947 K/C patterns they did not exist in WW2, they are found with makers marks in the vast majority of cases but not always. Post WW2 badges such as the ones in my album are more likely to be marked than not.

WW2 and pre1947 badges are generally not as you said correctly here

"Out of my many thousands of cap badges, I would say that less than 10% are maker marked!
Maker marked badges from WW1 are scarce and the odd Lambourne, Smith & Wright and Woodward examples are definately NOT common!
Between the wars there seems to be some fairly scarce F.N. examples!"

[Peter Brydon]

My message for 2011 is can we please moderate the language in some posts and go along with the spirit ( as well as the letter ) of the Forum rules .

I find the language of some posts embarrassing, who knows what new members or those who are just visiting must think.

P.B.

[freya 1940]

Originally Posted by 8thfoot

My message for 2011 is can we please moderate the language in some posts and go along with the spirit ( as well as the letter ) of the Forum rules .

I find the language of some posts embarrassing, who knows what new members or those who are just visiting must think.

P.B.

here here

freya

[KLR]

It is the standard of the spelling and the grammar that makes me cringe !

But yes, let's talk badges !

[Keith Blakeman]

Originally Posted by hagwalther

Hi Ry,

When I have time I will set up a thread on dodgy A/A and what to look for but such a thread will take approx. 4-5 hours to do images etc.

Regards

Chris

It would be nice if you could Chris, but like many other threads it would be overlooked with umpteen new thread questions " is this badge any good, etc, etc..... ad nauseum...."

It would make a decent forum project (many of which still don´t get viewed as a source of information) or best still put it in your book which we´re all looking forward too.

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by Keith Blakeman

It would be nice if you could Chris, but like many other threads it would be overlooked with umpteen new thread questions " is this badge any good, etc, etc..... ad nauseum...."

It would make a decent forum project (many of which still don´t get viewed as a source of information) or best still put it in your book which we´re all looking forward too.

Hi Keith,

I may try and do it today but I have a lot on with a few other things such as some work on Royal Marines badges which I have just received some information on. The fakes and reproductions bit is all written up as such in the Fakes and Reproductions chapter of the book which also goes into the manufacturing process of die stamping, cold and hot die forging, open and closed die casting and a few other obscure practices. The first step to identifying a genuine badge is to be able to recognise the proper method of manufacture. For A/A badges this was cold die forging but all the other processes are described so that a collector can recognise how any badge was made hence being able to make a good start in identifying a good badge from a dud. Hopefully this will be of interest to non A/A collectors too.

I'll try and get a shortened version done for the forum.

re: dodgy badges - I'm always open on my Gmail email address for opinions etc.

Regards

Chris

[GriffMJ]

I have just pulled out a "Royal Anglian Regiment" badge from an issued forage cap c1975-80. The makers mark on the AA badge is "London Badge & Button Co.Ltd".

The Forage cap has been in a "time capsule" called a wardrobe since the early 1980's. The previous owner was a former member of the LDYPAO Squadron, 7 Field Force, RAR.