Early Grenadier Guards Help

[Luke H]

Does anyone have an example or image of what they believe to be an early (pre-1897) Grenadier Guards headdress badge they would be prepared to show please?

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Luke H

Does anyone have an example or image of what they believe to be an early (pre-1897) Grenadier Guards headdress badge they would be prepared to show please?

The left and right flame tips did not come down so close to the ball of the grenade as subsequent patterns. It was worn on the Foot Guards pattern pillbox type forage cap. I hope that is of assistance.

[CAM]

I have one of the early design but I believe it is late Edwardian due to slider.

[magpie]

Pics sent text

[grenadierguardsman]

Luke
Pretty much all the versions of Grenades that are seen on dealers websites today were worn from about 1830-40, with lugs north and south. IMHO the pattern hasn't really changed since, just different fittings, locations etc.
Andy

[manchesters]

Originally Posted by CAM

I have one of the early design but I believe it is late Edwardian due to slider.

Is that not the 2nd Dragoons, Royal Scots Greys, Bandsmans cap badge?

regards

[Luke H]

Many thanks all.

Have just added the badge with brass loops. I felt it was a good candidate for an early pre-1897 badge.

After posting I recalled a similar one I’d picked up in 2018 with neck reinforcing, gilt finish and copper loops. It was in company with this mystery grenade which remains unidentified… I suspect it’s perhaps the oldest badge in my collection.

[CAM]

Simon,

the Greys', bandsman's cap badge is noticeably smaller. See https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ctureid=160882 and KK Vol 2 1889.

Chris

[manchesters]

Originally Posted by CAM

Simon,

the Greys', bandsman's cap badge is noticeably smaller. See https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ctureid=160882 and KK Vol 2 1889.

Chris

Chris,

Thankyou. I have just put a slidered one for sale on ebay, I had better check its size. Its probably one of these GG with a slider.

regards

[kingsley]

I have asked this question before but no one could tell me the answer:

Was the grenade badge (listed first in Toby's thread) exactly the same as
the 55 mm badge worn in white metal by the volunteer artillery?

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Luke H

Many thanks all.

Have just added the badge with brass loops. I felt it was a good candidate for an early pre-1897 badge.

After posting I recalled a similar one I’d picked up in 2018 with neck reinforcing, gilt finish and copper loops. It was in company with this mystery grenade which remains unidentified… I suspect it’s perhaps the oldest badge in my collection.

I think that the first two badges you posted, with loops North and South, are correct for Grenadier Guards rank and file forage caps spanning several decades. The tips of the flames left and right drooped closer to the ball in the subsequent versions.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by kingsley

I have asked this question before but no one could tell me the answer:

Was the grenade badge (listed first in Toby's thread) exactly the same as
the 55 mm badge worn in white metal by the volunteer artillery?

I believe that they were. It’s important to understand that the grenade fired proper had been a badge used by the Royal Artillery and the Fusiliers who guarded and escorted them, long before its adoption by the 1st Regiment of Foot Guards. The badges origins in the British service lay with the Board of Ordnance whose responsibility it had been to furnish and store all munitions, both land and maritime.

All the corps within the Board of Ordnance were linked by this feature of a fizzing and spluttering bomb and the badge was for that reason chosen to be the Corps of Royal Engineers sergeant’s arm badge in 1881, as a similar identifier to the gun arm badge used by their counterparts in the Royal Regiment of Artillery. This occurred decades after the standing down of the Board of Ordnance but was a historical thread, connecting them together and it had in any case already been the shared collar and coatee tail badge of artillery and engineer officers.

Another aspect was the hand grenade, whose provision had also been a responsibility of the Board of Ordnance. This specialist weapon was provided for long limbed infantry who could hurl the spherical projectile well and far. To mark them out a ‘fired’ (aka ‘fuzed’) grenade was allocated as the symbol to be worn on their uniform and equipment, initially in cloth, but soon in metal.

Each infantry battalion was allocated a company of these specially trained men positioned on the right flank of the battalion formed in line. The grenade thus became a symbol used by every infantry regiment in addition to its other iconography, but with the specific purpose of showing function. These grenadier companies were later often combined to form entire grenadier battalions as a tactical expedient, only returning to their parent units when no longer required.

After the battle of Waterloo and following the significant part that they played in defeating the French Grenadiers of Napoleon’s Imperial ‘Old Guard’, the 1st Foot Guards were honoured to become a permanent Grenadier regiment and unsurprisingly the long standing grenade symbol was adopted as their headdress insignia.

Illustrations that I’ve seen in oil paintings, and various types of sketch painted from life, convince me that the yellow brass badge chosen to be the headdress and cross belt insignia for the entire first regiment of Foot Guards was the exact same as the plain and simple pattern worn by the right flank company’s of the infantry regiments of the line. It was also used as an item of artillery insignia across Britain, Ireland and the old Colonies. In its oldest form it is plain white if in worsted thread and silver if in bullion wire. Marking this tradition it is notable that in 1914, upon the outbreak of war, the full dress collar grenades for officers of the Royal Artillery, Royal Engineers, Grenadier Guards and Royal Welsh Fusiliers, were all identical.

[Tinto]

Here is a link to another flaming bomb:

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...renadier+Tinto

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Tinto

Here is a link to another flaming bomb:

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...renadier+Tinto

I don’t think the stippled ball type is Grenadier Guards as there’s no precedent for it within British infantry other ranks, but the type on the 93rd’s bonnet is exactly the generic type that I was referring to. Note again the similar shape of the flames with no drooping at left and right.

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

I don’t think the stippled ball type is Grenadier Guards as there’s no precedent for it within British infantry other ranks, but the type on the 93rd’d bonnet is exactly the generic type that I was referring to. Note again the similar shape of the flames with no drooping at left and right.

Correct Toby not Grenadier Guards.
Andy