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  #1  
Old 03-01-09, 09:30 PM
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Default Commando Companies bi-metal hat badge - 1953 to 60

Commando Companies bi-metal hat badge - 1953 to 60





As worn by members of the 1st Commando Company (based in Sydney) and 2nd Commando Company (based in Melbourne).

Last edited by slick_mick; 28-01-09 at 02:46 AM.
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  #2  
Old 27-01-09, 10:53 AM
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Mick,

The dates and title attributed to this badge are incorrect. 1 and 2 Commando Companies were not raised until 1955 and were independent CMF companies based in Sydney and Melbourne respectively. They wore the bi-metal badge depicted throughout the 1960's and well into the 1970's.

The 1st Commando Regiment was raised in 1981, IRRC, when a Regimental HQ was raised at Randwick and the two previously independent companies were placed under command of the RHQ.

BTW, I recall seeing the first a/a version of the badge during the 1980's.

Cheers
Chris
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  #3  
Old 27-01-09, 11:32 PM
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Hi Chris,

Those dates I refer to is the general period of badges as per Jeff Cossum's books.

ie Those CDO badges are mentioned in his red book in the 1953 to 60 section and hence I (and many other collectors) refer to it as the 1953 to 60 period.

I see your point however and one of the things I am doing (albeit very, very slowly due to lack of time) is trying to recognise the exact periods a unit existed and when it wore it's particular badge (currently still on 1930 to 42 period Light Horse badges).

While Jeff Cossum's book is a great resource, it tends to group badges into particular periods which can lead to the mistaken belief that the unit may have existed throughout that entire period when it may only have existed for part of it. Until I am able to identify exactly when a unit was in existence and when exactly a particular badge was worn, I guess I will continue to use Jeff Cossum's periods he mentioned in his 3 books.

Mick

ps

It might be a good idea to record that info in this forum somewhere. Also, Alfred Fesferg's book "The Lineage of the Australian Army" would also be a good source on information about when particular units existed.
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  #4  
Old 28-01-09, 02:18 AM
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Hi Gents, as a Canuck I'msorry to intrude in an Aussie matter but I have been following your discussion on the subject and I remembered seeing something a few days ago pertaining to the commando. So I have found that something and I hope I will bring something to this discussion.
Cheers to all.
Jo
http://anjutosi.net/crestas/aust.jpg

Interesting as Simpson is wearing the badge in VN or is he wearing something similar.
http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-vc/simpson-vc.htm

http://www.1commando.com/files/history.pdf
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  #5  
Old 28-01-09, 02:30 AM
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Mick,

You are right in that Cossum is too broad brush in his dates. For example he has many of the badges in the 1960 -1985 section as an anodised finish. This is blatantly incorrect. Anodised badges were introduced over a great many years. The first a/a badges were issued to the newly created State infantry regiments in the early - mid 1960's and to SASR. The rest of the Army continued to wear gilt/brass, bi-metal, white metal or nickel plated badges well into the 1970's and possibly 1980's when they were replaced by a/a badges.

Cossum lists the above badge as Commando Companies, not 1st Commando Regiment, which is correct.

If this forum is to be a valuable source of information for members, I think we have to be especially careful and accurate in what we post. If not, then the information is misleading and valueless.

I applaud your efforts in seeking to determine when each type of badge was actually worn- well done. It will be a very useful and welcome reference when you have completed it. What sources are you using to ascertain the dates of issue? I would think we would need to go back to the primary sources from Army records.

Regards
Chris
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  #6  
Old 28-01-09, 02:34 AM
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Thanks Jo!

What I found interesting is the famous photo of Ray Simpson, VC with the Commando hat badge on his beret yet the article (http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-vc/simpson-vc.htm) doesn't mention any service with the Commando Companies.

Mick

Last edited by slick_mick; 28-01-09 at 02:45 AM.
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  #7  
Old 28-01-09, 02:44 AM
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Hi Chris,

Thanks mate - so far I have only delved into the area in which I have the most information about: RAAC and Australian Light Horse units. I have only established the time frame for each (1930 to 42 period) unit's existence via Alfred Fesberg's book I have mentioned below. I agree with you that to work out the date when the unit was officially authorised to wear it's hat badge would mean digging through army records - which I would consider a long hard slog! And it gets even messier given the amount of linking and de-linking of units that occurred over the years - especially between WW1 and WW2.

eg the lineage of the 7th Light Horse Regiment is as follows:

3rd Australian Light Horse Regiment (Australian Horse) - 1903

11th Light Horse (Australian Horse) - 1912

7th Light Horse (Australian Horse) - 1918

7th Light Horse Regiment and 21st Light Horse Regiment linked to form 7th/21st Light Horse Regiment - 1937

7th/21st Light Horse Regiment unlinked - 1937

7th Light Horse Regiment (Australian Horse) - 1937

7th Motor Regiment (Australian Horse) - 14th March, 1942

Disbanded - 19th October, 1943

It would be quite a task to work out what badges would have been worn during the amalgamation with the 21st Light Horse - this is just one example to show the complexity of the task.

Its certainly not a trivial exercise and if other collectors were interested in a group effort, it would certainly help :-)

There is also a badge book on post 1953 Australian badges that should hopefully be out soon and I'm very interested to see how Mark and Arthur (the authors) indicate when each particular badge was worn.

Mick


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrisr View Post
Mick,

You are right in that Cossum is too broad brush in his dates. For example he has many of the badges in the 1960 -1985 section as an anodised finish. This is blatantly incorrect. Anodised badges were introduced over a great many years. The first a/a badges were issued to the newly created State infantry regiments in the early - mid 1960's and to SASR. The rest of the Army continued to wear gilt/brass, bi-metal, white metal or nickel plated badges well into the 1970's and possibly 1980's when they were replaced by a/a badges.

Cossum lists the above badge as Commando Companies, not 1st Commando Regiment, which is correct.

If this forum is to be a valuable source of information for members, I think we have to be especially careful and accurate in what we post. If not, then the information is misleading and valueless.

I applaud your efforts in seeking to determine when each type of badge was actually worn- well done. It will be a very useful and welcome reference when you have completed it. What sources are you using to ascertain the dates of issue? I would think we would need to go back to the primary sources from Army records.

Regards
Chris
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  #8  
Old 28-01-09, 02:46 AM
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Jo,

Thanks for the links.

Yes that is a 1st Commando Regiment Assocation wall plaque and would be post the mid 1980's, as prior to 1981 the Regiment did not exist.

The point I was making earlier is that for the period mentioned in the thread, it is a Commando Company badge and it was issued from 1955 until the late 1970's/early 1980's, not 1953 -1960. The Regiment and its companies still wear the same design badge but it became a/a sometime in the 1980's, which is when I first saw it being worn, or even the late 1970's. Hopefully Mick's project will throw light on this.

You are correct in saying Simpson is wearing a Commando Company badge with the green beret. Simpson served in the RAR, SAS and was an ARA instructor with one of the Commando Companies before being posted to AATTV. I had the privilege of meeting him at Nui Dat not long after his VC was awarded. A tough but unassuming soldier - quite reticent at the time.

Regards
Chris
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  #9  
Old 28-01-09, 02:51 AM
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Thanks Chris for the clarification about Ray Simpson.

Here's another question re AATTV - did many other members of the AATTV wear badges of their previous regiment/corps badges whilst attached to the AATTV?

I have seen Ray Simpson VC wear his famous Commando badge in pictures, have seen the RAR badge in pictures (didn't Keith Payne wear an RAR badge on a 5th SFG patch?), the unofficial AATTV hat badge and even South Vietnamese badges being worn (all in pictures!).

Was there any official order at the time about what insignia they would wear whilst with the AATTV?

Mick
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  #10  
Old 28-01-09, 03:00 AM
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Mick,

You are absolutely correct - trying to follow Australian unit lineages is like trying to unravel a bowl of spaghetti. I don't envy you the task although Alfred Fesberg's book is a great help. I had a copy once but must have lost in a move.

The matter is further complicated by the new badge not necessarily being issued until some time after the unit designation changed. I recall the a/a badge for The Royal Western Australia Regiment was not produced for some years after the unit was created in 1960 - possibly as late as 1965. I am not sure what the various battalions wore until them - probably the old battalion badges.

regards
Chris
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  #11  
Old 28-01-09, 03:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_mick View Post
Thanks Chris for the clarification about Ray Simpson.

Here's another question re AATTV - did many other members of the AATTV wear badges of their previous regiment/corps badges whilst attached to the AATTV?

I have seen Ray Simpson VC wear his famous Commando badge in pictures, have seen the RAR badge in pictures (didn't Keith Payne wear an RAR badge on a 5th SFG patch?), the unofficial AATTV hat badge and even South Vietnamese badges being worn (all in pictures!).

Was there any official order at the time about what insignia they would wear whilst with the AATTV?

Mick
Hi Mick,

I can't be sure about AATTV, I didn't serve with them. My recollection is that the members of the team wore their unit or corps badge, but as you say some are seen wearing the unofficial AATTV badge. Simmo was wearing the green beret and commando badge when I met him and he was still with the AATTV at that time (1969).

I don't think there was any official order on what insignia they would wear, but I can't be sure. I think the evidence is that they wore what they wanted when they with the ARVN.

Sorry I can't be more helpful.

Regards
Chris
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  #12  
Old 28-01-09, 03:27 AM
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Thanks Chris - might be worthwhile starting a thread where we can post pictures of the different badges worn by AATTV members.

Mick
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  #13  
Old 06-03-11, 04:48 AM
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Mick

WO2 Ray Simpson VC DCM served as an ARA soldier with the 1st Commando Coy prior to serving with the AATTV.
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  #14  
Old 06-03-11, 10:52 AM
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Default a/a Cdo hat badge

The a/a Commando hat badge was not a favorite with the troops and many opted to purchase a bi-metal hat badge via the OR's Mess or 1st Cdo Regt Association.
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  #15  
Old 06-03-11, 07:50 PM
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During what period did this occur? 1960s/70s? or more recently?

Mick
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