Ayrshire Yeomanry, the running order for the Other Ranks cap badges

[3dg]

Coming back to my thread to make some amendments and changes.
I've had the pleasure over the last few weeks of being in contact with Keith Hook, he's been a collector of Yeomanry badges for many decades, Keith also is quite passionate about the dating and study of badges.
I showed him my thread, and he has been kind enough to share his knowledge and experience with me, I am very grateful to him.
So from what I've gained from Keith, I' going to go to the separate badges on the thread, and instead of editing what I've written already, what I'll do is write below the text with a heading NEW FINDINGS.
I'll do this over the next few days.
I hope members have found my thread useful so far.
Cheers

Chris

[3dg]

can't seem to edit individual posts.
So I'll do a quick summary of my findings and corrections after my email Comms with Keith Hook.

Badge one
IY pattern, information is correct

Badge two
The bazaar made one.
This one I'm now putting to one side.
Keith has avoided theatre made badges unless one was physically handed to him by the original wearer, he has a Sharpshooters Yeomanry theatre made from the actual wearer.
So I'm going on the side of caution, I think the badge is correct, but until I see one that has actually been worn by an AY soldier, and it compares with mine, then it's staying in the question mark folder.
Please see Luke H's post 37, this badge is coming out of the question mark folder, as Luke's observations make sense.

Badge three
The cut and shut.
I was shown by Keith regulations regarding badges, after discussion, we came to the conclusion that this badge had approval by the CO, sent to the authorities, authorised and made.
See post 37, by the way it's made, this is more than likely a private made badge for the Regiment.

Badge four
This is just a different maker, obviously cheaper as it's a single die.
This is more than likely the WO made badge, see post 37
Badge five
This badge is a post WW1 badge, with the wording moved around.
Keith agrees that the badge shown is an early version, but this badge continued as the issue badge, so badge seven is just a makers variant, but a later one, WW2 era. I have been lucky enough to purchase a similar badge to badge seven from Keith, but it's on loops and is unused, this badge is pre WW2, so badge seven becomes badge six. A picture of the one on loops is attached.

Badge six
This is the WW2 issue badge, the one that filled the gap when they ran out on mobilisation and were issued the older badges 1, 3, and 4 respectively.
This badge is now badge seven (see above badge five)

Badge seven
Is now badge six (see badge five information)

Badge eight
A later slight variant of badge six (badge six which has now become badge seven)

Badge nine , anodised
Information correct

Badge ten, PRI
Information correct

I hope members find these changes informative.

Many thanks for reading

Chris

[Tinto]

Thanks for the information, Chris.
Good to have specialist knowledge from Keith Hook.
Regards,
John

[Alex Rice]

This is an amazing thread, thanks for sharing the info.
Cheers,
Alex

[3dg]

Thank you
Keith is an absolute gentleman, his knowledge is invaluable.
The Proud Trooper book is almost right, a bit old soldiers tales in some parts Keith says, especially regarding the Bazaar made badge being sent to the UK and a new one made from that.
I must re study the sergeant's badges in the 1930's photo, they are mostly WW1 veterans, so the badge I'm seeing as badge 6, the small 'of', could be the 'cut and shut' or the 1916 badge, I'll look out for the 1920's badge also.
Cheers all

Chris

[Luke H]

A very comprehensive thread with sound observations Chris.

Seeking Keith’s invaluable input is always a wise decision in Yeomanry matters. Like me he has a healthy scepticism of theatre/bazaar made sand cast badges.

However, in this case I do not think your cast AY (badge two) should be in the ‘question mark folder’. For the following reasons:

1) We have a written record in The Proud Trooper of the first scrolled badges being bazaar made. Whilst it’s not a primary source there is enough to it where it rings true. As a regimental history written by a former AY Major in the early ‘60s that does for me make the account and description more than mere anecdote.

2) The construction of your badge, age, wear, scarcity, even the shape of the loop wire are all what I would expect from a period badge.

3) From a manufacturing point of view the badge in question matches no extant die used to produced any Western tooled/manufactured variant seen. It is it’s own entity, which would match The Proud Trooper account.

Personally I would not doubt that badge and would be happy to own one.

Finally, regards ‘badge four’ from post #33. I would hypothesise the single piece die stamped version was made when the WO took over production of Yeomanry and TF badges towards the end of 1916.

The cut & shut I would envisage was the first privately produced UK made example.

[3dg]

Thank you Luke for your informative input.
Out of the ? folder it comes.
After reading all your points on the bazaar made badge it does all make sense, I think I am quite happy with it now.
So cut and shut you think was privately made, makes sense, as the Yeomanry did tend to have privately made badges.
I think that's it complete then, unless something else comes along, which as we all know happens often.
Something else Keith commented on was the Bi metal AY badge, often thought of as an Officer's.
From his notes he has this badge as being sealed at some point, so whether it was for S/NCO's or just Warrant Officers I don't know, I'm going to get in touch with the AY OCA about it again, hopefully shed some light on it.
Thanks again Luke , I'll amend the thread as per your input.

Chris

[Luke H]

I’ve seen several of the BM Ayrshire Yeos on sliders, a couple marked Gaunt London (small font, no full stop). I’d be quite certain they were worn by SNCO / NCOs of some description and not solely for officers.

[3dg]

Another to get.
Luke, when you say Gaunt London in small font, do you mean the 12mm mark?
I've also seen this badge with the J R Gaunt London in large font, is this badge good?
Cheers

Chris

[3dg]

Originally Posted by Luke H

I’ve seen several of the BM Ayrshire Yeos on sliders, a couple marked Gaunt London (small font, no full stop). I’d be quite certain they were worn by SNCO / NCOs of some description and not solely for officers.

This one?
The one on post 40 looked like it had loops at some point, same die as the solid chin one??

[Luke H]

Yes that’s the one. I’d be happy with both badges.

[Alan O]

I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread and it's nice to see such research collated to produce a likely timeline for the badges.

If I was asked to date the bi-metal ones then I would say late 40's to early 1950s by the mark. I prefer the die cast one myself. Clearly worn under regimental arrangements and probably privately bought. Whether they have any rank significance or were for best dress is open to speculation.

[dubaiguy]

Hi Chris
I echo Alan's praise on a very interesting and informative thread. Further to your PM and request to show my lugged bm example, here it is, I hope it helps with your conclusions in some way.
Mark

[3dg]

Thank you Alan and Mark for your kind comments, thank you everyone for the kind comments, I've really enjoyed putting it together and receiving corrections and additions.
Mark, a lovely badge, thank you, one on loops as well!
I think the Bi metal should definitely be in this thread, as it's still an other ranks cap badge, as Alan says, speculation to who wore it, but definitely points towards S/NCO's. I think has to be with badge six(was badge 7) as a variant. And I'd agree with 40's 50's, Keith says one was sealed in the 50's, but the small Gaunt mark I believe is late 40's?
Cheers
Chris

[Mike Jackson]

In the book, "Brief Historical Notes on The Ayrshire Yeomanry (Earl of Carrick's Own) 152 Fd Regt RA 1939-45" by Maj BM Cox MC the author states at page 25 that, "In March 1942 Lt Col RDH Houldsworth relinquished command of the Yeomanry to Lt Col J Spedding RA. Lt Col Spedding made one fatal mistake. He ordered the Regiment to remove its ancient and traditional collar badges and buttons. This upset the Regiment. Officers and Warrant Officers volunteered for other duties. Capt CN McAndrew joined No 1 Commando. However the Regiment just managed to cling together. " Note from me: by the late Summer of 1942, Lt Col J Spedding RA relinquished command to Lt Col W Bedford. I don't know if the latter was an Ayrshire Yeoman but the Regiment sailed off to war on 14 Nov 42 as a unit of 6 Armd Div. Illustrations in the book show the large size badge being worn by Officers of 152 Fd Regt RA on service dress caps whilst a photo of the RSM, a BQMS and two BSMs show all wearing a collar badge sized badge on their berets. Speaking as a former (Surrey) Yeoman, I feel that Lt Col Spedding should have known better than to meddle with dress regulations in a Yeomanry Regiment!