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#16
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As in my post to Manchesters (one above) I do not believe all war-raised units were regular. I find it hard to believe the NCC in particular was a regular unit. Members could only ever be privates with no possibility of promotion (their officers and NCOs were attached from other regular units) and did not carry a weapon. They did not get paid the same as regular soldiers, were denied the army-wide pay increase of 1919 and did not receive the same amount of leave. They were also kept in service long after other units had been sent home and uniquely did not receive a war gratuity. I think these factors stop them being viewed as regular in either sense of the word. That is not to say that I don't respect their views or their contribution. Furthermore this is just my argument - it's not definitive. But I'd need to see some sort of evidence to change my mind. Thanks for the info on the Schoolmaster's badge - tricky to display them alongside the MPSC unless I use the wreathed version to differentiate the two. I'm never sure how the Norfolk Yeomanry managed to differentiate themselves from the MPSC - surely the badge is identical! Pic 1: Norfolk Yeo; 2. MPSC type 1; 3. MPSC type 2 Last edited by TomPC; 17-07-21 at 12:52 AM. |
#17
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Thanks - I just need to find out what date in 1918 it was issued. My collection is strategically dated 31 March 1918. STOP PRESS: The name change from Army Gymnastic Staff to Army Physical Training Staff came in December 1918 (see https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdo...=rep1&type=pdf). I just need to know if that's when the badge was issued. Last edited by TomPC; 17-07-21 at 12:39 AM. |
#18
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Hi Alan,
After a great deal of thought, I've decided to omit the Army Remount Service altogether. Under the principle of inheritance (the rule that places the RFC after the RE and the Tank Corps after the MGC) I agree that - if included - it probably should go after the ASC. But at the same time I don't think it is a unit in its own right, if it's actually a component of another corps already featured. I was sorely tempted to place it after the Cavalry in the same way it appears in monthly 1918 Army Lists as my general principle is that I should follow the Kings Regs of 1912/14 as closely as possible and then follow its additional rule: "...regiments ... shown collectively therein [in the table] take precedence amongst themselves as laid down in the monthly Army List." Anyway - decision made. Omit! Last edited by TomPC; 17-07-21 at 08:38 AM. |
#19
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AMENDMENT TO LAYOUT
1. As mentioned above, I will be removing the Army Remount Services as they are not a unit in their own right - they are a part of the ASC. (In much the same way as I wouldn't include a badge for Chestnut Troop as well as the RHA - if indeed either of them had unit-specific badges in 1918, which they didn't.) 2. I will be reinstating the 5th Lancers to follow the 4th Hussars (instead of the 17th Lancers) because King's Regs 1912/14 state in the Order of Precedence section: "...regiments ... shown collectively therein [in the table] take precedence amongst themselves as laid down in the monthly Army List." In other words the KRs just show that Cavalry is higher in precedence than Royal Artillery. You have to refer to the army lists to see what order the cavalry units should appear. And in the Army Lists the 5th follows the 4th. Case closed. I'm a bit sad because I enjoyed the history of the 5th Lancers' mutiny, the unusual ordering of 16th/5th and the seeming irrationality of it all! Last edited by TomPC; 17-07-21 at 01:01 AM. |
#20
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#21
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Thank you. I agree that it's disputed.
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#22
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It has been held by some on forum that "MPSC 1" of post no. 16 (the Crown, cypher and wreath badge) was worn by The Army Corps of Schoolmasters.
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#23
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Oh crikey. Well at least if I feature them both the only problem will be which order they're in.
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#24
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Yes, if I remember correctly, I was one of them I think.
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#25
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I may be unleashing a red herring, I remember the point being raised in at least one thread concerning MPSC, Schoolmaster, Recruiter, and probably Norfolk Yeomanry and Barrack Warden badges but not what the outcome of discussion was.
A couple of threads including MPSC https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...highlight=MPSC https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ad.php?t=14411 |
#26
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Yes, I've found the thread, these MPSC, Norfolk Yeomary etc threads always get interesting.
A suggestion was that chap was likely too scruffy to be MPSC and more likely to be a Schoolmaster. |
#27
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The AL Mar 1918 lists the following (sorts of) institutions under "Establishments - Educational and Training" (I've not listed them all) Ordnance College School of Military Engineering School of Musketry, Hythe School of Electric Lighting RMC Sandhurst RMA Woolwich Physical and Bayonet Training (HQ: Army Gymnastic Staff) I will therefore be dropping both of them from the list of Corps. |
#28
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I still hold that opinion.
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#29
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I have done quite a bit of reading on this and this is very interesting
https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprin...6/1/283368.pdf I would agree with Hoot that your Sgt is most likely to be a pre-1920 assistant Army Schoolmaster serving with an Essex Bn. The schoolmasters were WOs and the master title needs to be thought of in context of soldier education in a regt not a military school. As such the presence of one NCO in a battalion would be likely - far more likely than a lone MPSC man, From 1920 the AEC is formed with a new cap badge, |
#30
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Working through the March 1918 Army List one comes to the WARRANT OFFICERS section at 2259 (or page 2044 if you're using a pdf or web verisons).
All the warrant officers are listed under the following classifications. 1. STAFF - Staff or Garrison Sgt-Majs 2. EDUCATIONAL - 1st & 2nd Class Army Schoolmasters 3. REGIMENTAL - WOs in each regiment of the Cav, RA, RE, RFC, Guards, Infantry, ASC, RAMC, AVC 4. DEPARTMENTAL - WOs in the AOC, APC, C of M Police, MPSC This suggests to me that the Army Schoolmasters at this point in history are considered neither Regimental nor Departmental and thus don't belong in the Precedence of Regiments, Arms, Corps and Departments at Mar 1918. |
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