Royal Scots with slider

[signalman]

Can i have some comments on this badge. It has some weight to it and i know that there is one in an album here which i think is listed as a pagri but it does not show the back.Phil.

[2747andy]

Phil,
yes, it is a genuine Pagri badge.

Andy

[signalman]

Thanks for that Andy, i have a small collection of RS badges and it will fit nicely. I was a bit worried when i first saw the photo as it appeared to be all brass but it came from a badge free home ie someones clear out amongst non military. Regards Phil.

[KLR]

The 1916 "all GM" version of the RS badge was specified to have loops.

[signalman]

That's what i thought but when it arrived it was the photo that was at fault. Do you know if these are common or not?. Regards Phil.

[davidwyke]

Originally Posted by signalman

That's what i thought but when it arrived it was the photo that was at fault. Do you know if these are common or not?. Regards Phil.

Andy or someone else might have a different opinion, but I would say the Royal Scots pagri badges are fairly scarce.

David

[2747andy]

David,
I agree! Almost all of the standard Scottish Infantry badges, normally lugged which are slidered for Pagri use are far scarcer than their lugged counterparts!

Here's a nice RSF

Andy

[Alan O]

I don't like the short sliders for a pagri. The official HPC conversions always had much longer sliders.

There is a possibility that the short sliders are regtl commissions. There is precedence by the Kings FSH badge which was worn by the 1st Bn in India in the early 1920s.

As for RSF this one has a full length slider typical of the official ones: http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ctureid=109207

[2747andy]

Alan,
these are not HPC conversions, they are mostly cap badges in the case of the Scots Infantry! I do like them Some are FN marked and I disagree with Regimental Commissions, they were probably demanded through the normal chain prior to an overseas deployment?

Andy

[Alan O]

Andy

History says otherwise. The history of the pagri badge is varied but in general pre 1900 some regts wore regtlt commissioned badges - examples can be seen in my album for the Hants and Suffolks.

Circa 1901 (exact date is on the Forum somewhere) there was a decision to standardise the use of badges with the official issue of HPC centre designs with long sliders. For those regts without HPC (such as the NF badge in my album) they used Fusilier grenades or Scottish bonnet badges. KOSB on a long slider is here: http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ictureid=91686

This was not a success and abandoned only a few years later. It is these badges that are also in my album.

The use of metal badges on the FSH was forbidden by an Indian AO circa 1904 (date taken from RF regt history). However some regts did readopt badges. This included some of the TF Bns sent to India in 1914. Photos are again in my album. Again in the 1920s the peacetime army did occasionally use metal badges such as the pre '26 King's badge in my album.

The vast majority of regts used cloth badges.

[2747andy]

Alan,
the Scottish Infantry Regts were authorised to retain lugs as the means of fitting on their headdress badges when almost all of the rest of the Regular Army had to adopt sliders. It was also directed that the FSH was not to be pierced to allow the fitting of a badge. Whilst a standard slider would be and was easy to fit to the Pagri cloth, lugs would mean holes would have to be made. It is unlikely the powers to be would ban holes without going some way to accommodate Regiments that could not comply! i.e. the Scots Infantry. The badge you show does have the longer slider, however these are commonly found clipped, which suggests they were too long? The FSH was worn widely overseas, not just in India and well into the 20th Century. There would be a requirement to have slidered Scottish badges for the FSH. Regtl commissioned items were normally those not available through the normal supply chain (publicly funded), such as NCO and WO insignia. These shorter sliders, which you don't like are highly likely to be such "Publicly Funded" items towards the later period of service/wear of the FSH?

Andy

[Alan O]

All correct but the slider on the one above is too long for the c.1900 issue but I agree with you about clipped sliders. They are common on the regtl Norfolk badge. After the failed HPC conversion at the start of the century, the provision of official badges for the FSH was very limited. Oddly the KOYLI were one of the few regts to have one (it's the oversize bugle design). I have my suspicions because they wore the slouch hat as a common item of headgear far more than any other regt and the KOYLI also used it on that hat.

So it's not an official issue pagri badge because the slider is too short, nor is there any evidence for a regtl purchase so after the shortlived period of authorised use in 1900, it and the RSF, are in the suspect box.

I would add that Coldstream pagris, which were still in use in the 1930s, are always lugged before anyone gets worried about theirs.

I don't collect cloth but do know that the Regt used cloth pagris as early as the 1880s: http://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/au...4-a53d00b3aa62

[2747andy]

Alan,
there are too many slidered Scottish badges in circulation which shown genuine signs of use for them to be tagged as "Suspect", I just think they are later period items as I said above! If they were fake they would not have the FN sliders or be MM'ed too!

Andy

[Alan O]

Andy

If you can show some evidence of their use after 1904 then I would be delighted to see them.

All I have ever uncovered is a photo of badge in use on the white cloth FSH for ceremonial use and that was dated 1902 when the use of metal badges was briefly authorised.

[Alan O]

Having gone into my notes the link for the photo of the Royal Scots 1902 ceremonial badge is here:

http://www.soldiersofthequeen.com/In...oyalScots.html

It's a great site and one of the few that has lots of FSH photos. The vast majority (both khaki and white ceremonial) have no badge but a couple do including the Royal Scots one a lincolnshires (with the 1897 cap badge) http://www.soldiersofthequeen.com/In...anVeteran.html and a KRRC (again with the 1895 QVC cap badge) http://www.soldiersofthequeen.com/In...ifleCorps.html.

http://www.soldiersofthequeen.com/India.html