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  #16  
Old 26-05-08, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Saddle tree maker View Post
Moving slightly away, but in relation to the Black Watch badge you have, I touched on this earlier in reply to Fougasse's post.
Were the economy badges in Brass - the yellow victorian era brass or where they gilding metal ? Or indeed a mixture of both ?
If the latter, should they be called "1916 all gilding metal economy issues"
Or am I totally off the wall on this one and have an early night ?
STM.
I would think that brass with its higher zinc content would be softer than gilding metal,and therefore easier to use.
Are there any gilding metal economy badges out there?

fougasse1940.
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  #17  
Old 26-05-08, 08:50 PM
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Cool 1916 all brass

In my opinion these badges were struck in gilding metal, the yellow brass ones are restrikes as are all yellow brass struck badges, apart from the pre-territorial glengarry badges which were struck in brass.
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  #18  
Old 26-05-08, 09:28 PM
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I thought as much, so 'all brass economies' is just a collector's term.
Can the same be said for 'Blackened-brass' ?
STM.
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  #19  
Old 26-05-08, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Sonofacqms View Post
In my opinion these badges were struck in gilding metal, the yellow brass ones are restrikes as are all yellow brass struck badges, apart from the pre-territorial glengarry badges which were struck in brass.
Woodward made economies appear in a more yellowish metal rather than GM, one such example is the Inniskilling Fusiliers economy badge these are widely regarded as good by collectors and sold as the genuine article by the most respected dealers like Lew. I would tend to agree that most genuine brass economy badges should be in what appears to be the richer tone GM but I believe Woodward made economies (genuine ones that is, as they have been faked) are an exception as they must have sourced their metal from a different supplier IMO.

Luke
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  #20  
Old 27-05-08, 06:49 AM
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Default Only woodward ?

Is F.E.Woodward the only known - 'named' - maker of the economy badges, or are there other's ?
STM.
Unrelated to the above question though on the economy issue, I have just noticed a one piece all brass RSG. ebay # 230256269515.
Which is being sold as an original. This badge in brass isn't even mentioned in K&K, so I doubt it will be in KLR's findings, but would be interested to know.
I've seen plenty of 2 piece badges, but this is the first 1 piece striking I've come across, what d'you think ?

Last edited by Saddle tree maker; 27-05-08 at 08:19 AM. Reason: Add on.
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  #21  
Old 27-05-08, 01:27 PM
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http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=013

I am watching this badge purely because i have one and his asking price is interesting, i would like to see what it goes for, if at all.
Here's Mine

Malc
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  #22  
Old 27-05-08, 04:52 PM
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For what its worth, in my opinion there is realy no such thing as never when it comes to badge collecting (or most of anything else for that matter). There are always exceptions, just to what extent and why we may not ever find out. I am convinced that some genuine period badges do exist in brass that are not "supposed" to and that goes for the yellow brass ones as well.
Whether any of these badges were ever issued and worn is another aspect of this question as well.

CB
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  #23  
Old 27-05-08, 05:19 PM
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They both look very much alike, Malc, do you think it's a fair price ?
I would say a brass one is quite rare to this regiment.
They are both very different to the regiment's normal bi-metal pattern, and seem to be the same pattern of the 'All white-metal Sgt's badge'. (If that badges exists, it's another I haven't seen).
Cbuehler, I agree with you, if there is one thing I have come to accept while being a member of this forum is that there are, it seems, exceptions to EVERY rule.
STM.
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  #24  
Old 27-05-08, 07:04 PM
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The REASON why these "economy" issues came into being is simple. Although I don't have such a book in fropnt of me, any British economic history will tell you that by 1916 (the process started - surprisingly late? - in about the mid 19th century) the cost of labour had outstripped the cost of materials.

Now to the evidence, the following was signed on the 1st March 1916
"For necessary action. For the period of the war, all badges now made partly in G.M. & partly in white metal, will be made wholly of the former. Badges entirely of white metal will remain as heretofore."

The wording to contractors was
"The attention of the contractor is called to the fact that in many cases Badges made hitherto partly of GM & partly of GS are now required to be made of a single thickness of metal only. "

The end came in May 1919
"The decision to the effect that certain cap badges made of gilding metal and white metal, should, as a temporary measure, be made wholly of the former, is now abrogated, and pre-war patterns are to be reverted to. "

To my mind, there is no doubt that it was the construction process that was being addressed. As you will know, there were various other measures taken with badge production at the time - such as the "solid" badges without any expensive voiding / fretting (even though some was mechanical as noted).

As Fougasse noted there were stipulations on the alloy component. Actually the 1897 notes specify that brass is no longer to be used, and that GM is now the preferred metal So, yes "brass economy" is, strictly speaking, the wrong term.
I should also note that the official term for "blackened brass" is actually "GM Bronzed" - I believe this is probably because it was a similar process to the ?powder used to "bronze" OSDs.
Regarding the badges themselves, it's interestint to learn about Woodward etc. One other thing is that yes, any King's Regt "all GM" badges are actually "bald" 5th Bn badges. However, they should be in one piece, there are lots on evil bay in two pieces which to my mind are fake.
Yes, I have found out quite a bit about these badges, I'm working with a colleague and we hope to publish something. I'm personally not very good on cavalry, I've "done" the infy and am wading through the refs on TF infy.
J
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  #25  
Old 27-05-08, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KLR View Post
One other thing is that yes, any King's Regt "all GM" badges are actually "bald" 5th Bn badges. However, they should be in one piece, there are lots on evil bay in two pieces which to my mind are fake.

J
Thanks Julian for the official lines,

Good point that J raises is that any all brass badge which incorporates brazing is in my mind a repro as the whole point of the economy issues was to negate the need for brazing. As well as King's Regt badges I have also seen all brass Royal Dublin Fusiliers with a braze attached scroll.

Cheers,

Luke

Last edited by Luke H; 27-05-08 at 08:20 PM. Reason: had it right the first time derrrrrrrrr
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  #26  
Old 27-05-08, 07:36 PM
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Luke,

For some reason (and I can only presume low Bn numbers) the RIF and RDF do not appear to have had economies made. The RIF have been faked with a one piece die of ridiculous proportions and often have a fake maker's name on the slider. Brass RDF repros also exist but as you say with 2 parts.

I have yet to see a tagged scroll economy badge that was genuine. All the original ones I have in my collection are all one piece and as mentioned earlier have replaced badge designs which formerly contianed overlaid pieces. Tagged scroll badges such as WYorks and Warwickshires have been reproed in all brass and they are sold by the usual crooks on ebay. The fakers are striking 2 part badges in brass putting them together and then selling them as 1916 economy.

Here is an exceptionally rare brass RWarks badge - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/WW1-THE-WARWIC...QQcmdZViewItem
Now bearing in mind the number of Warwickshire Bns in WW1 if there really was an all brass version of this badge then it should be one of the most common! They are however not common except for these ones on ebay - fortunately the seller has several of thse ones. Its almost as if he has a box of them!!!!!

Alan

Last edited by Alan O; 27-05-08 at 08:19 PM.
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  #27  
Old 27-05-08, 08:01 PM
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Thank's KLR,
It's good to have access to anything that is official in this hobby and your post certainly clears the water. With this in mind then - all tagged 2 piece brass badges being passed off as economies are wrong - no matter who the seller is.
Great stuff.
STM.
Very interesting that the official term for what collector's term 'Blackened brass' is 'Gilding metal bronze' , I wonder if it will catch on ?

Last edited by Saddle tree maker; 27-05-08 at 08:06 PM. Reason: add on
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  #28  
Old 27-05-08, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Owen View Post
Luke,

For some reason (and I can only presume low Bn numbers) the RIF and RDF do not appear to have had economies made. The RIF have been faked with a one piece die of ridiculous proportions and often have a fake maker's name on the slider. Brass RDF repros also exist but as you say with 2 parts.

I have yet to see a tagged scroll economy badge that was genuine. All the original ones I have in my collection are all one piece and as mentioned earlier have replaced badge designs which formerly contianed overlaid pieces. Tagged scroll badges such as WYorks and Warwickshires have been reproed in all brass and they are sold by the usual crooks on ebay. The fakers are striking 2 part badges in brass putting them together and then selling them as 1916 economy.

Alan
Alan,

I agree all brass badges with tagged on scrolls are bad uns so far as I've ever seen.

But the low battalion number doesn't tell the whole story IMO. If we look we can see that brass economies were produced for the Leinster, RIF and RMF yet not for the RDF and R Irish F.

The Leinster was one of the smallest in battalion size: 1 & 2nd reg Bns; 3-5 reserve & extra reserve Bns; and just two new army service battalions 6 & 7.

The Royal Irish Fusiliers consisted of more battalions than the Leinster with: 1 & 2nd reg Bns; 3 & 4th reserve Bns; 5, 6, 7, 8, 9th service battalions, 10th reserve Bn; 11th service Bn: 1, 2, 3rd garrison Bns. and didn't have a brass economy badge

Whereas the Royal Dublin Fusiliers were one of the largest of the South Irish (at the time) regiments consisting of: 1 & 2nd reg Bns; 3-5 reserve & extra reserve Bns: 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 service Bns; 11th reserve

There is IMO no prima facie battalion number reason to who was assigned a brass economy badge and who was not.

Luke
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  #29  
Old 27-05-08, 08:21 PM
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Luke,

Yes I cannot explain that anomoly. Perhaps the Bns had large stocks of bimetal ones already or expressed a severe dislike for the brass ones that none were ordered? I can only speculate.

Alan
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  #30  
Old 27-05-08, 08:59 PM
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I haven't (yet) found evidence that the Bns disliked the "economys" - though it wouldn't surprise me. But I can tell you that units such as the RA certainly disliked the "solid" badges they were issued with.

STM - it's distinctly bronzed
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