"Monarchial crown' - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

jf42 · #1 06-11-17, 07:56 PM

Greetings all. Could I ask the assembled company if the word 'monarchial' is a common technical term in this field of interest used to describe the crowns that might feature in cap badges and related military insignia?

e.g. As in the phrase "This is surmounted by a monarchial crown", etc.

(I am fairly sure it is not a typo for 'monarchical')

Thanks

JF

Toby Purcell · #2 07-11-17, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jf42

Greetings all. Could I ask the assembled company if the word 'monarchial' is a common technical term in this field of interest used to describe the crowns that might feature in cap badges and related military insignia?

e.g. As in the phrase "This is surmounted by a monarchial crown", etc.

(I am fairly sure it is not a typo for 'monarchical')

Thanks

JF

‘Monarchial’ is wrong in the context that you quote, but monarchical would be correct in describing a crown, although in my experience rarely used in that way as a badge collecting term.

Lancer 17 · #3 07-11-17, 05:51 AM

G'day JF

Allowing that all crowns are Monarchical, in this field we usually refer to the various crowns as used on military badges as relating to either a King or a Queen as they are different and the crowns of Queen Victoria, who has 2 basic designs and Queen Elizabeth 11 are different. So you have abbreviations of QVC (Queen Victoria Crown), QC (QE11) and KC and just to confuse things there is also a Gulphic crown that is used on some of the older badges.

Id suggest that you use the established terminology rather than try to introduce a new term.

I hope that this helps

Regards

Phil.

jf42 · #4 07-11-17, 08:59 AM

Thanks gentlemen. I was aware of standard usage, which is why I was surprised to see the word used on the National Army Museum website in the description of a regimental badge.

Toby Purcell · #5 07-11-17, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jf42

Thanks gentlemen. I was aware of standard usage, which is why I was surprised to see the word used on the National Army Museum website in the description of a regimental badge.

It would seem to be either a genuine spelling error, or a malapropism JF.

jf42 · #6 07-11-17, 06:29 PM

My impression is that 'monarchical' better refers to a model of government than to an emblem pertaining to the sovereign, such as the crowns that have already been referred to- 'QVC', 'KC'- for which I would have thought 'Royal' might be a suitable term for a non-technical, more general readership.

As I write, it occurs to me that in the majority of instances, most crowns on military insignia will be Royal, with a minority being 'Naval', 'Mural,' and perhaps other alternatives that slip my mind. Otherwise, they would be princely or ducal coronets, would they not? Off the top of my head I can't think of insignia pertaining to lower ranking nobility being employed. I stand to be corrected.

Reassured by all your contributions, I am inclined to think the description I cited is likely to be a malapropism

Frank Kelley · #7 08-11-17, 07:52 AM

It is merely a direct reference to the monarch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jf42

Greetings all. Could I ask the assembled company if the word 'monarchial' is a common technical term in this field of interest used to describe the crowns that might feature in cap badges and related military insignia?

e.g. As in the phrase "This is surmounted by a monarchial crown", etc.

(I am fairly sure it is not a typo for 'monarchical')

Thanks

JF

leigh kitchen · #8 08-11-17, 08:16 AM

Presumably employed in this context as a shorthand rather than detail that the crown on insignia could change, being one of various patterns depending on monarch?

jf42 · #9 08-11-17, 10:03 AM

I don't think so, Leigh, as the item is dated specifically to 1902-1935. 'KC' to the initiated.

Cap badge, other ranks, Black Watch (Royal Highlanders),

This badge features a rayed and faceted star similar to the Star of the Order of the Thistles. Upon the centre, within a wreath of thistles, an oval frosted circle bears the burnished motto: 'nemo me impune lacesset' (meaning no one attacks me with impunity'). This is surmounted by a monarchial crown. Within the circlet the figure of St Andrew is depicted holding his cross upon a frosted ground. On either side of the crown, frosted scrolls bear the burnished unit title."

It may have been copied from another source. Sadly the site is not as authoritative as one might hope. Admittedly, the catalaogue is better, with entries having been created before recent changes.

https://collection.nam.ac.uk/detail....c=1963-12-74-1

rmarsden · #10 08-11-17, 10:28 AM

JF, Badge has a brassy look about it. I wonder who fitted a slider to it?
I have only ever seen one ORs example fitted with a long pagri slider that appeared to be all original with no signs of lugs ever been fitted.
Ron.

jf42 · #11 08-11-17, 10:46 AM

Well, Ron, I guess that's a question for the National Army Museum!

What does a 'brassy look' usually signify? (Quiet in the ranks!)

Alan O · #12 08-11-17, 11:22 AM

It's an odd badge as the type of Scottish headdress worn required lugs. The s/p was certainly lugged.

The use of the slider with Scots badges was confined to pagris and even then contemporary photos show that the Black Watch did not wear the cap badge on the FSH but wore the red hackle.

jf42 · #13 08-11-17, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan O

It's an odd badge as the type of Scottish headdress worn required lugs. The s/p was certainly lugged.

The use of the slider with Scots badges was confined to pagris and even then contemporary photos show that the Black Watch did not wear the cap badge on the FSH but wore the red hackle.

Ah, a very fair point, re. slider, FSH and the pagri, which slipped my attention. I was distracted by Rons's comment re. the 'brassy look.'

rmarsden · #14 08-11-17, 12:19 PM

JF, the badge shown in the NAM post is a J.Gaunt pattern which in 'my' index system I call die no 12.
I have three examples L to R, standard badge with J R Gaunt London tablet.
The same badge with oval area pushed forward for 3D effect (unofficially).
The same badge S/P and traces of gilt for wear in the baldric, lugs fitted horizontally. If you compare the colour of my badges to the NAM example which looks dull brownish?
Ron.

jf42 · #15 08-11-17, 12:57 PM

Yes, I see that clearly now, by comparison. I was wondering if it might be a trick of the light but the effect is definitely a subtle bronze- or brass. How odd.

The catalogue suggests that the Museum in the past accepted what it was given. Why that particular item should have been selected to be accessible on line, is another matter.