Royal Welsh Fusiliers

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Bantam

Hi Toby,
I have seen photos of the regular battalions in WW1 and their are all wearing the coventional variaton of the Officers Service Dress Badge.
As a side note my wifes grandfather served as a stretcher bearer in the 9th Battalion R.W.F.1914-18.
Regards Bantam

Thanks Bantam. I do not have so many pics of the officers, although I have a small collection of WW1 B&W postcards showing ORs in various training camps throughout UK with good resolution of badges and shoulder titles. Most of the pics of officers I have seen are in books such as Dunn's history of 2 RWF 1914-1917 and Sassoon's and Graves's well known books.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by 41st

Toby,
I too have a similar all brass smaller 'sh' version which I know nothing about.
I will photograph it and post it for comparison. However, I agree with you that it would appear to be too well made for a bazaar or copy.
Thanks for your earlier response to my unknown 23 badge, I have a few more very early i.e Regency ones, that we believe to be RWF or associated militia and will post these for you to have a look at.
Bantam has identified one as Flintshire.
Cofion,
Kevin

That's great news as you are the first to tell me they have a similar badge. Does it have the same long slider that protrudes beyond the bottom centre of the badge's base?

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by 41st

This one is one of my favorites. As best we can tell it is thought that it is a Regency period fur cap badge. The quality of the piece is superb and is not done justice by the photographs. Just look at the detail on the feathers.
However, the hard evidence is poor, the only reference I have is to a photo of a painting in the Regiment series magazine for the RWF on page 21 showing an Officer of 1784 wearing a similar front piece. Somewhat earlier I know, but having shown it to Dixon Pickup, he believes it to be from the Regency period.
I will have to see what I can dig up at the museum. Unless of course anyone knows better.
As far as I can tell the RWF did not wear this pattern of badge during the Regency period, rather a large triangular plate on the fur cap.
1.Front showing gilded crown overlay and very well defined feathers. Overall height approx 3 1/4".
2.Rear showing conversion to pin fastening and one remaining retaining wire to front crown.
3.Position of original loops above pin.
4.Side view showing depth of pressing.

I have definitely seen oil paintings showing this badge on officers fur caps around the time of the close of the American War of Independence (it may well have been in the officers' mess but I cannot be sure). I recommend you contact the regimental museum at Caernarvon as they are usually very helpful. It is a lovely badge and it would be great to confirm its provenance.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by 41st

The following patterns are often given as Officers' badges in auction house descriptions, but I believe them to be for senior NCO's. The next post will show why.
1.Regular silver on gilt pattern.
2.Reverse of the above showing two long loop fastenings.
3.Volunteer all white metal version.
4.Reverse of the above showing two long loop fastenings.

I think this is the badge of 'First Class Staff Serjeants' (appointments between Serjeant and 'The' Serjeant Major, many (but not all) as Quarter Master Serjeants) most of whom later (1915) became warrant officers second class.

[41st]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

I think this is the badge of 'First Class Staff Serjeants' (appointments between Serjeant and 'The' Serjeant Major, many (but not all) as Quarter Master Serjeants) most of whom later (1915) became warrant officers second class.

Toby,
Many thanks for that information, it narrows it down and confirms what I thought.
With regards to the large silver and gilt badge I too have seen an oil painting with it on dated pre 1800. It looks like it might be heading in this direction rather than Regency.
As for the small badge I will have to dig it out. I put it away somewhere when I thought it was a bit 'iffy'.
Cofion,
Kevin

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by 41st

Toby,
Many thanks for that information, it narrows it down and confirms what I thought.
With regards to the large silver and gilt badge I too have seen an oil painting with it on dated pre 1800. It looks like it might be heading in this direction rather than Regency.
As for the small badge I will have to dig it out. I put it away somewhere when I thought it was a bit 'iffy'.
Cofion,
Kevin

I have just remembered that not only have I seen the painting in oils but also in a water colour (probably 'from' or 'after' the oil version) as one of a large series of high quality prints produced in I think the 1970s and often found in salesrooms and flea markets. I recommend that you focus on the period 1780-1782 although it may also have been years either side too. It was definitely an officer of that period and I think of one of the Flank Companies.

[John Mulcahy]

41st

This is a very interesting thread and many thanks for showing these. May I ask what your opinions and experience iare with the post 1881 glengarry grenades? These are faked to death with the regiments I am interested in (Royal Munster & Dublin Fusiliers), I have seen various thoughts about using the style of lugs and the height of the grenade opening to help distinguish fakes. For instance I have seen some comments about fakes usually having longer lugs I would be interested in any opinions you have as a result of your experiences with collecting to the RWF.

thanks

John

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by John Mulcahy

41st

This is a very interesting thread and many thanks for showing these. May I ask what your opinions and experience iare with the post 1881 glengarry grenades? These are faked to death with the regiments I am interested in (Royal Munster & Dublin Fusiliers), I have seen various thoughts about using the style of lugs and the height of the grenade opening to help distinguish fakes. For instance I have seen some comments about fakes usually having longer lugs I would be interested in any opinions you have as a result of your experiences with collecting to the RWF.

thanks

John

John, I believe the so-called 'Fox Re-strikes' have the lugs incorrectly placed East and West rather than North and South but that is as a much as I can remember. I have both pre and post 1881 variants for the RWF but you will get a much more complete explanation from 41st and/or Bantam I think, as their collections are clearly much more extensive than mine will ever be.

[Bantam]

Originally Posted by John Mulcahy

41st

This is a very interesting thread and many thanks for showing these. May I ask what your opinions and experience iare with the post 1881 glengarry grenades? These are faked to death with the regiments I am interested in (Royal Munster & Dublin Fusiliers), I have seen various thoughts about using the style of lugs and the height of the grenade opening to help distinguish fakes. For instance I have seen some comments about fakes usually having longer lugs I would be interested in any opinions you have as a result of your experiences with collecting to the RWF.

thanks

John

Hi John,
For the very reasons you have written I've steered clear of the R.W.F. grenades.I am handing this one over to 41st for answering.I will however post some photos of some variants of the R.W.F.Badges and invite comments.
Regards
Bantam

[Bantam]

Here is the first variant Officers s/gilt SH spelling pre 1920.
Slider clipped.
Note that unlike normal officers badge this one as not got the pointed flame.
When I purchased this badge it was black with patina.It was cleaned up for repair but repairer thought that it might damage gilt.
bantam

[Bantam]

The next set are The 1st Volunteer Battalions other ranks pattern in white metal and brass.
Note the change of spelling from SH to CH officially this did not take place until "Army Order 56 of 1920" but the Volunteers ceased to exist after 1908.
Also the change of North South to East West configuration of lugs.
All these variations coincide with Regimental Museum examples on display in Caernafon.
Bantam

[Bantam]

The 2nd Volunteer Battalions Badges.Same as above.
Hwyl
Bantam

[Bantam]

3rd Volunteer Battalion Royal Welsh Volunteers other ranks Badge.
I have only seen this badge in white metal .I would be grateful if anyone knows of the existence of a brass version to submit comments.
Hwyl
Bantam

[jeanpit-frenchy]

very nice collection bantam

[41st]

Originally Posted by John Mulcahy

41st

This is a very interesting thread and many thanks for showing these. May I ask what your opinions and experience iare with the post 1881 glengarry grenades? These are faked to death with the regiments I am interested in (Royal Munster & Dublin Fusiliers), I have seen various thoughts about using the style of lugs and the height of the grenade opening to help distinguish fakes. For instance I have seen some comments about fakes usually having longer lugs I would be interested in any opinions you have as a result of your experiences with collecting to the RWF.

thanks

John

John,
My experiences are much the same as yours I'm afraid when it comes to the OR pre and post 1881 glengarry badges. To the point that I only have one post 1881 glengarry grenade in my collection and I'm not too sure about that one.
I agree with earlier comments that most of the Fox and later restikes have the loops east/west as opposed to the correct placing of north/south. However, that is not a failsafe as the Welsh Regt(41st) had theirs east/west.
With the pre 1881 23rd badges I have noted that there is a flaw in the cutout for the 3 on the fakes and will post an example when I can find where I chucked mine in disgust.
I'm also wondering about the slight bubbling effect that appears on the flames of some copies. As this is not evident on any of the fur cap grenades, why should it be present on the glengarry grenades?
With regard to the post 1881 grenades I would only check the usual suspects i.e, most of the fur cap and glengarry originals did not have 'feet' on the base of the loops and the later loops on the copies tend to be a much brighter colour when cleaned suggesting a very high copper content.
I was also told by an old collecter to look at the colour of the metal on the badge itself. The Victorian badges should be a mellow yellow when cleaned and not bright brass due to the difference in the mixture of the alloys.
Hope this is of some help.
Cofion,
Kevin