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  #1  
Old 09-12-18, 04:05 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Default True or False?

True or False?

I spotted this recent listing on trade me and thought it worthy of discussion.

https://www.trademe.co.nz/antiques-c...0c503dce5dfd97







The seller is well known for his embellishment of the items he sells which IMO can be very misleading, however, he does offer an “unconditionally guaranteed 100% GENUINE for life, that guarantee INCLUDES their cost of postage BOTH ways” if an item is proven to be a fake.

The seller also mentions that viewers of the auction should “BEWARE the many REPRODUCTION badges that are now flooding the WWW (Especially in The UK) where the "Maori Face" NZ Maori Pioneer cap badge has been widely re-struck (IE Faked)
More recently the "Oval" design badges have also now attracted the attention of fakers in central Europe”


So, I guess my questions are, does this badge stand up to be a “RARE Genuine Sand-Cast WW1 era” that the seller claims it to be? or could it be an outright fake intended to deceive collectors of their hard earned cash?

However, before forum members voice their opinions, it is first worth considering that ALL CAST BADGES (Not including die cast) of the NZ Pioneer Battalion (February 1916 to September 1917), and the NZ (Maori) Pioneer Battalion (September 1917 to April 1919), ARE ALL COPIES of original issue badges.

Secondly, it is worth considering that the NZ Pioneer Battalion (February 1916 to September 1917) badge was issued in the UK after the Battalion had departed the Middle east, making it unlikely, but not impossible, that their badges were sand cast in the Middle East.

Thirdly, does the badge itself look typical of those that were produced in the Middle East? Taking into account the patina that is commonly found on 100 year old NZ “Genuine Sand-Cast” badges, and are the lugs correct as is commonly found on NZ “Genuine Sand-Cast” badges?
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  #2  
Old 09-12-18, 05:05 AM
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Tinto Tinto is offline
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Hello Brent,
I've not seen anything like this before, the badge in auction could well be an "in theatre" made badge. I wouldn't pay the price advertised though.
Regards, John
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  #3  
Old 09-12-18, 08:12 AM
Wayne Ihaka Wayne Ihaka is offline
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don'tv see why there would be a cast badge made in middle east when the unit was UK/France...maybe on the way home someone got one made

seems unlikely

not for me
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  #4  
Old 09-12-18, 04:44 PM
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fougasse1940 fougasse1940 is offline
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The quality seems to high to be genuine, it looks too new and the green crescent on the obverse doesn't look like verdigris at all.

Rgds, Thomas

Last edited by fougasse1940; 10-12-18 at 12:38 AM. Reason: spelling
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  #5  
Old 09-12-18, 11:25 PM
RNeil RNeil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Ihaka View Post
don'tv see why there would be a cast badge made in middle east when the unit was UK/France...maybe on the way home
The Rarotongan company in the Middle East, so there is a sight chance badges could have been locally made for them?
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  #6  
Old 11-12-18, 09:05 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Gentlemen thank you for your replies.
Based purely on genuine examples of WW1 NZ sandcast badges that I have handled, and all of which had some sort of an aged patina, I am leaning towards this badge being a copy.

As mentioned, it is unlikely this badge would have been worn in the Middle East, however it is possible that members of the Otago Mounted Rifles who had served with the NZ Pioneer Battalion may have had copies made.

Having done a little research on the Rarotongan company in the Middle East I have as yet found no evidence of them wearing any badges except for the NZNC oval badges.

The following link shows several photos of Rarotongans, the following photos are of what I believe to be a genuine sandcast NZNC badge are copied from post #52 of that thread.

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ad.php?t=22199



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  #7  
Old 11-12-18, 09:09 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Another NZ sand cast badge.

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ight=sand+cast




Last edited by atillathenunns; 11-12-18 at 09:17 AM.
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  #8  
Old 12-12-18, 08:18 PM
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In my opinion the pioneer badge is original.

I donít think a comparison of corrosion on a badge is a suitable method for determining fake or original. Any corrosion is more to do with the conditions that badge has been stored since manufacture - climate, moisture, temperature, against leather, etc.

Enjoy the hobby, Keith
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  #9  
Old 13-12-18, 08:42 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popskipa View Post
In my opinion the pioneer badge is original.

I don’t think a comparison of corrosion on a badge is a suitable method for determining fake or original. Any corrosion is more to do with the conditions that badge has been stored since manufacture - climate, moisture, temperature, against leather, etc.

Enjoy the hobby, Keith
Welcome to the discussion Keith.

The badge in question is a beyond doubt a copy, but is it a war time copy?

To me the bright finish and lack of patina was really just a warning sign, as the sand casting process usually leaves a residue of oxides and silicates which over time, and depending on the quality of brass, usually oxidises to some extent.
However, I did consider that the badge may have been recently chemically or ultrasonically cleaned.

My leaning to it being a modern copy is mostly to do with its construction and lack of characteristics that would determine it to be a “RARE Genuine Sand-Cast WW1 era” badge.

Looking at the sellers badge, the front has some interesting pock marks with no detail to the back of the badge, suggesting to me the badge was open cast.

The two examples that I have borrowed from other threads both have a grainy/sandy texture to the fronts that is common to WW1 NZ sand cast badges, the 14th Regiment badge shows reverse detail that I believe is from using a typical sand cast mould.

Brent
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  #10  
Old 13-12-18, 07:33 PM
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fougasse1940 fougasse1940 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atillathenunns View Post
However, I did consider that the badge may have been recently chemically or ultrasonically cleaned.
If cleaned, then why the 'verdigris' (which I'm convinced can be removed with paint thinner)?

Rgds, Thomas
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  #11  
Old 15-12-18, 06:17 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Possibly to make a recently manufactured badge look old.
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  #12  
Old 26-12-18, 10:30 PM
NZEF NZEF is offline
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Hi all, here is an NZE cast badge.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20181227_092431.jpg (117.6 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg 20181227_092522.jpg (78.8 KB, 18 views)
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