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  #1  
Old 06-09-20, 06:26 PM
stevjp stevjp is offline
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Default New Zealand Army Pay Corps

Guys,
Just trying to piece the time-line of the New Zealand Pay Corps.
According to Geoff Oldham's and Dave Corbett's books

- Prior to 1917 the function of the NZ Pay Corps was handled by Civilian personnel.
- On the 31st of May 1917, the New Zealand Army Pay Department was established.
- On the 21st of July 1920, Officers were appointed to the New Zealand Army Pay Corps.
- On the 18th of May 1924, Corps was reconstituted and re-established as part of the NZ Permanent Force.
From 1917 to 1924 the first type of badges were worn - see attached photo.

After 1924, the second type of badges were worn (see photo) with Kings crown and NZ to center.

- In 1930 the Corps was disbanded and its function transferred to Civilian Personnel.

Then there is a gap....

Corbett mentions that in 1969 the Corps was re-established, and the second type of badge (with Kings Crown) was still worn.

Then in October 1978, the Corps was given approval for a St Edwards Crown badge - 3rd type, see attached.

What happened during WW2. Was the corps never re-establsihed?

Many thanks and all the best
James
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_2757.JPG (111.8 KB, 39 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_2758.JPG (97.9 KB, 28 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_2759.JPG (114.1 KB, 27 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_2760.JPG (102.1 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_2640.JPG (81.7 KB, 15 views)
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  #2  
Old 06-09-20, 09:35 PM
nbroadarrowz nbroadarrowz is offline
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Hi James,
I do recall that the second type of badge that you show was worn during WW1 (now I think of it, this is the NZDC badge) and that I have noted it in two slightly different sizes (apart of the cap/collar size difference ).
I have this badge which is the NZAPC cap badge size in white metal with a different scroll and a broach pin. I do wonder if this is for a civilian working in the NZAPC office WW2 period???
Barry
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File Type: jpg 5185.jpg (93.4 KB, 13 views)

Last edited by nbroadarrowz; 07-09-20 at 07:30 AM. Reason: Change of mind
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  #3  
Old 07-09-20, 09:31 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nbroadarrowz View Post
Hi James,
I do recall that the second type of badge that you show was worn during WW1 (now I think of it, this is the NZDC badge) and that I have noted it in two slightly different sizes (apart of the cap/collar size difference ).
I have this badge which is the NZAPC cap badge size in white metal with a different scroll and a broach pin. I do wonder if this is for a civilian working in the NZAPC office WW2 period???
Barry
By any chance do you have any pictures of the "second type of badge" being "worn during WW1"?

Cheers
Brent
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  #4  
Old 07-09-20, 11:06 AM
stevjp stevjp is offline
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Guy's,
thanks for getting back to me and a nice badge Barry.

If it helps add to the debate attached is a 2nd type collar to the New Zealand Pay Corps with Gaunt plaque.

Likewise Barry, I have two 2nd type NZDC cap badges with Gaunt plaques as well.

I know the NZAPC existed in WW2 as I have a set to 26325 Sergeant John Leslie Guinness of dog-tags, ID bracelet and Cap badge. He left with the 2nd New Zealand Expeditionary Force, Third Echelon, and served as a Acting Sergeant for NZ Base Pay Office, NZ Army Pay Corps.

If you have time Brent, please let us know what the correct history of this unit was.

All the best and thanks again.
James.
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File Type: jpg IMG_2767.JPG (104.6 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_2768.JPG (103.4 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_2769.JPG (93.2 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg guinness.jpg (31.5 KB, 18 views)
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  #5  
Old 09-09-20, 10:50 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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James, my research into the NZAPC is mostly focused on its members who served at Gallipoli, however, I do have some information on the 1917 changes.

When I get a chance on the weekend, I will put something together.

This WW2 picture taken circa 1940 shows a pay and postal officers aboard a troopship.

Pay Corps Two pay and postal officers off duty aboard a 2nd Contingent troopship sailing from Br.jpg

It seems to me that the Pay Corps puggaree was first introduced during WW2.

Pay Corps.jpg
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  #6  
Old 09-09-20, 09:39 PM
RNeil RNeil is offline
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A few points on the timeline of the NZ Army Pay Corps from 1930 to 1947 to help fill in the gaps.
Many accounts state that in 1930 the Corps was disbanded, and its functions transferred to Civilian Personnel, this is only partially correct. In 1930 a large part of the NZ Army was gutted with many solders either forced to retire if in administrative positions such as Pay or Ordnance Corps transferred to the Civil staff to carry on doing the same job as a civilian and at much-reduced rates of pay.
As a result of these retirements and transfers, by the end of 1930, no military members remained in the NZ Army Pay Corps, but although its manpower had been disbanded it remained listed in the Army Regulations as a Corps of the NZ Army.
In the case of the Ordnance Corps, it had been gutted in a similar manner but still retained a small military cadre and as the government's financial situation improved resumed the recruiting of soldiers from around 1933, and it is possible that the Pay Corps followed suit.
In October 1939 a newspaper article was published identifying the different types of Puggaree used by the Army, listing the Pay Corps Puggaree as been Khaki/Yellow/Khaki.
With the mobilisation of the NZEF in late 1939, notices of officers appointed to the NZ Army Pay Corps begin to feature in the New Zealand Gazette from November 1939.
NZ Gazette No 1 of 11 Jan 1940, approved of the following appointments to the Second NZEF, taking effect from 5th January 1940
N.Z, BASE PAY OFFICE.
• Paymaster: Major F. Prideaux, N.Z. Army Pay Corps.
• Assistant Paymaster: Lieutenant W. C. Morris, N.Z. Army Pay Corps
So there is a documented time frame identifying the existince of the NZ Army Pay Corps from October 1939 with the identification of its new Puggarre, which it could be assumed was worn with the badge last worn in 1930.
Jumping forward to 1947, Amendment No 56 to the Regulations for the New Zealand Military Forces 1927 lists the N.Z. Army Pay Corps as one of the Corps comprising the NZ Military Forces, placing it as eleventh on the seniority list.
So the question to the N.Z. Army Pay Corps timeline is what was its status from 1947 to 1968?
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  #7  
Old 20-11-20, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atillathenunns View Post
By any chance do you have any pictures of the "second type of badge" being "worn during WW1"?

Cheers
Brent
I am going through Matt Pomeroy's photo collection, helping him identify his unknown WW1 soldiers . I have identified the NZer as Walter Thomas Roots 50123, and he is wearing second type NZAPC hat badge .
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  #8  
Old 21-11-20, 07:59 AM
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Has this not solved a several decades debate ?
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  #9  
Old 23-11-20, 08:39 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Has this not solved a several decades debate ?
Puk, I don’t know about a decade’s debate, but certainly since we solved the NZAOC badge riddle 4 years ago, I have been searching for certain pictures of NZAPC badges to see if they followed the same practice as taken by the NZAOC.

So far, I have only found one picture that shows the so called “First type NZAPC badge” as being approved for wear within Army training camps in New Zealand.

Yours and Matt’s fantastic picture of Walter in England (taken some time after 1-12-1917) suggests to me that the so called “Second type NZAPC badge” was approved for wear by NZAPC members of the NZEF.

All we need now to solve the last part of the NZAPC badge enigma, is to confirm what badges were worn by members of the New Zealand Home Service Branch? which I suspect will also be the First type.
Finally, it stands to reason both types were adopted after the 1st April 1917, as with the NZAOC, were both types worn by the NZAPC post 1919?

Last edited by atillathenunns; 23-11-20 at 08:47 AM.
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  #10  
Old 07-09-20, 09:26 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevjp View Post
Guys,
Just trying to piece the time-line of the New Zealand Pay Corps.
According to Geoff Oldham's and Dave Corbett's books

- Prior to 1917 the function of the NZ Pay Corps was handled by Civilian personnel.
- On the 31st of May 1917, the New Zealand Army Pay Department was established.
- On the 21st of July 1920, Officers were appointed to the New Zealand Army Pay Corps.
Sadly, most, if not all, of this information is incorrect

Brent
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  #11  
Old 04-10-20, 06:45 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevjp View Post
Guys,
Just trying to piece the time-line of the New Zealand Pay Corps.
According to Geoff Oldham's and Dave Corbett's books

- Prior to 1917 the function of the NZ Pay Corps was handled by Civilian personnel.
David Corbett’s conclusion that “the duties of pay and finance were carried out by civilian personnel until 31st May 1917,” is clearly incorrect, and most likely based on information available at the time of his research.
Information presented so far proves the NZEF Army Pay Department were not civilian personnel.

But what about the NZAPD who served with the Home Service Branch, and were attached to all the New Zealand training camps and to each of the District Headquarters?

Well, it is possible that some civilians who were not fit for overseas duty, may have been given uniforms and served with the NZAPD in the New Zealand training camps, but after Gallipoli, most of those positions were replaced by returning servicemen who were no longer fit for overseas duty.

I happen to have records showing Staff Sergeant Robertson (posts 17 – 20), and Pay Sergeant Kenneth Elton Shorney, (NZAPD, Service Number 16/1337), both for health reasons were returned to New Zealand.

Robertson was promoted Lieutenant on the 2nd July 1917, and on the 13th July 1917 was appointed Inspecting Accountant for the District Quarter Master General, a position placing him in charge of inspecting and auditing all the training camps Paymasters accounts. However, it is possible that the last person who was Inspecting Accountant to the DQMG, may have been a civilian.
Robertson was promoted Captain 17th October 1917.

As for Captain Kenneth Shorney, he went on to become Command Paymaster of the Dunedin district, resigning that position in May 1919.
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  #12  
Old 04-10-20, 07:18 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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The following picture shows Staff Sergeant Stratford John Collett, NZAPD, Service Number 58324, and Staff Sergeant Alfred Herbert Williams, NZAPD, Service Number 22660.

Both embarked on the 4th October 1918 with the 41st Reinforcements, and the photo is taken aboard the troopship.
Unfortunately the badges are not clearly detailed, but am leaning to the collar badges being type 8/290.

Pay 41st Staff Sergeant Stratford John Collett, NZAPD, Service Number 58324, and Staff Sergeant .jpg
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  #13  
Old 05-10-20, 08:33 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevjp View Post
Guys,
Just trying to piece the time-line of the New Zealand Pay Corps.
According to Geoff Oldham's and Dave Corbett's books
- On the 31st of May 1917, the New Zealand Army Pay Department was established.
Prior to the outbreak of WW1, the NZ Army Pay Corps, the NZAOC, and the NZASC only existed on paper, and were awaiting to be constituted and established as part of the NZ Army Permanent Forces.

Both Corbett and Oldham’s books state “the New Zealand Army Pay Department was formed on 31st May 1917.”
I would suggest the official date that the New Zealand Army Pay Department, and the New Zealand Army Pay Corps were officially constituted and established, is the 1st April 1917.


The following regulations under the Defence Act. 1909, have been gazetted, and come into force as from April 1, 1917
Part I.
New Zealand Army Pay Department Establishment,
1. The New Zealand Army Pay Department
, is hereby constituted and established as part of the Permanent Staff of the Defence Forces, and shall consist of the following officers The director of financial services, the accountant, four command paymasters (one in each military district).
2. Officers of the New Zealand Army Pay Department shall be granted the following substantive ranks
Director of financial services—Colonel, Lieutenant-Colonel. or Major.
Accountant and Command Paymasters (on appointment)—Lieutenant, after two years service Captain.
3. Previous service in the above appointments. whether in a civil capacity or not, prior to the coming into force 'of these regulations shall count towards promotion. —

Part 2.
13. The New Zealand Army Pay Corps,
is hereby constituted and established as part of the Permanent Force.
14. The N.Z.A.P.C. shall be officered and commanded by officers of the N.Z.A.P.D. The D. of F.S. commands the said corps at headquarters, and the command paymaster commands all members of the said corps within his district.
15. The following shall be the establishment of the N.Z.A.P.C.
2 Warrant officers.
6 Staff sergeants.
10 Other ranks.
16. During the present war the establishment laid down in the last preceding regulation may be exceeded to the extent set forth in General Orders.
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  #14  
Old 05-10-20, 08:43 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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General Orders July 1917
NZ Army Pay Department distinguishing patch.

General Orders July 1917.jpg
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  #15  
Old 05-10-20, 09:26 AM
RNeil RNeil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atillathenunns View Post
I would suggest the official date that the New Zealand Army Pay Department, and the New Zealand Army Pay Corps were officially constituted and established, is the 1st April 1917.
You are quite correct that 1 April 1917 was the establishment date of the NZAPD and NZAPC as part of the NZ Army Permanent Forces.

What confuses matters is that the NZAPC and the NZAOC (which was also established as part of the NZ Army Permanent Forces on 1 April 1917) had also been established as units of the NZEF early in the war.

Althought sharing a common name and role, the NZEF NZAPC and NZAOC had little or no relationship with the NZ Corps of the same name.
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