What Headdress Worn?

[Tim B.]

Here's a basic question for those in the know;

What headdress' would have been worn by the other ranks serving in the 2nd South Middlesex Rifle Volunteers prior to the regiment being redesignated as the 10th Middlesex (Territorial Force) in April 1908?

Can someone show an example/s with the badge in place?

Thank you,
Tim

[manchesters]

Tim,

I would say they would be wearing the rifles busby, sealskin for OR's and astrakhan for Officers.

regards

[Tim B.]

Hi Simon,

Kind of surprised to hear that, but fully admit that I am not knowledgeable on British head gear at all. I had always thought those fur hats were dress or parade/guard head dress.

Were these also worn in the field? I guess back in the Napoleonic Wars...?

I honestly don't know, just looking for a cap badge and wondered what I should be looking for.

I've seen the Victorian style helmet plate version with 3-loops and the style that's got the round South Middlesex logo surmounted with crown but I don't know the style of attachment. I suspect slider but that might not be correct?

So much to learn just starting out. Eventually though!

Tim

[JerryBB]

In 1907/8 I would expect them to be wearing the SD cap 1905 pattern with standard cap badge. Like you I would expect any other headgear only to be worn with dress uniform. Before 1905 they probably wore the Brodrick cap from about 1900 and before that the Glengarry or FS cap. Unless the regiment had very particular regimental traditions.

[manchesters]

Tim,

"Were these also worn in the field?"

You didnt ask that question in your initial post and I assumed that you must have meant full dress, otherwise as JBBOND says below, same as most other regiments.

regarsd

[gb64]

Hello Tim
Agree with all the above a few types of OR's headdress where worn, how much prior to 1908 are you looking?
Gerard

[Peter Brydon]

It may not help with the precise answer but there is a related thread on the GWF which is most interesting:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/fo...dville-plates/

P.B.

[Tim B.]

Morning gents!

Will try to respond to all here:

- I didn't specify what type of uniform here as I wanted to see what all options were. I do prefer service uniforms, as the cap badges I want to add are ones that I would assume a normal everyday soldier would have worn.

- I assumed, probably the general pattern caps for the period as well but it appears some units wore specific caps and as this was a Volunteer/Territorial Force unit, I wasn't sure if they had something particular to them. Also, depending on exactly where the unit might have been assigned at the time, I would imagine that dictated what uniform/headdress was specified.

- Good question on the exact timeframe I am discussing, as I do not know 100%. Attached is a photo excerpt of one of the man's service record pages. I annotated the area in red. In the annotation, the page is folded at the edge but appears to read 2yrs for both 2nd South Middlesex Rifle Volunteers, and 10th Middlesex (Territorial Force). I understand fours years is the normal period of engagement/enlistment for volunteers.


Regarding the individual, what I do know is this:

- He was a Pte. in the above regiments and was serving in the Royal West Kent Regiment, 5th Bn, G Company (? - 21 Oct 1914) as a private.

- G company was stationed at Chatham (Cliffe, Hoo) when the majority of the 5th Bn deployed to India in late October.

- He accepted commission in October, 1914 at which time he was approximately 28 years old and assigned as a temporary Lieutenant in the Royal Berkshire Regt.


If I backdate the age and the fact he claimed 4 years service in the "other ranks" as a Territorial, then that would make his age ~ 24. However, that backdate would only go back to 1910 and in that case, he couldn't have served in the 2nd South Middlesex Rifle Volunteers, as they had already disbanded and became the 10th Middlesex (Territorial Force) in April, 1908.

So, either he had more than four years total service in the other ranks and "maybe" only some of that was TF, I don't know at this point. Just how long he served in the Royal West Kent Regt. is also in question.

How old does one have to be to enlist in the military service back then? The U.S. was 18, 17 with parental approval and in some cases, some snuck in a bit younger after the war started, though it was highly frowned upon.

Peter,

That's kind of what I am looking for and will spend some time looking to see if the regiments mentioned are shown here.

Thank you everyone!
Tim

[Alan O]

Tim

Have you considered that he joined the 24th RV did a couple of years, became the TF for a couple of years and left in 1909/10.

He could then have joined the 5th Kent TF in 1914 and the previous service record would make sense with this break in service.

As for headdress he would have worn the 1905 peaked cap in khaki and in No1 dress colours for the Middlesex and RWK. There is always the possibility that as a 24th/ Middlesex TF that the FSC was still in use as well in 1908 but you would need to find contemporary photos. Some TF units were still wearing the' slouch' hat for a few years after 1908 on summer camps.

[Tim B.]

Morning Alan,

No, honestly I don't know enough on how these Territorial guys moved about from one unit to the next. When I had his records checked at the National Archives, it only has the officer records, based on his MIC. As far as I know and what I've been told, once a person gets commissioned, the enlisted records are often purged. That kind of surprised me, as how do you record his full service at that point?

The service records appear quite different from what I am used to in the U.S. This guy's records are mostly application forms, medical board related (due to war injury) and back & forth notes between him and higher authorities.

I would have expected more information with things like; history of assignments, awards, fitrep/evaluations relating to performance of duties, and some basic personal background type information. So, it's rather hard to find anything at this point.

What I figure is, if I can properly find the correct unit (Regt./Bn/Co. that he served in, the correct time frame assigned, and then the regiment information during that time, I should get a fair idea where he served and what he was actually doing. That's my thought anyway.

Not sure if this is a common dilemma with British military records as this is the first one I am really digging into. When I bought his medal bar, all the information stated was he was an officer in the 9th Service/Reserve Battalion of the Royal Berkshire Regiment. However, he was actually in the 5th Bn. when wounded at Pozieres, (Somme) in August, 1916. So it appears he moved back and forth between the 5th and 9th Bn. I was told that was fairly common as well.

Still looking for answers on this one and I see it will take some time to get the specific details down.

Tim

[Alan O]

Tim

Before WW1 the Territorials were not part of the regular army so the records were not held by the Army proper. The pre 1908 Volunteer Battalions were very much their own private organisations and the TF continued like this. They were part time volunters so may have signed up and left after a short period. There are no service records for the pre war VB or TF as they just did not work like that.

Alan