FiFe & Forfar Yeomanry c1914

[Alan O]

Afraid it is. Another candidate for the 1970s yeomanry repros.

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by Alan O

Afraid it is. Another candidate for the 1970s yeomanry repros.

So its a re-strike of the "Early" pattern (1) c 1970's.

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by Alan O

It loks like a small patch but the ORs do not seem to be wearing it.

Alan

I think it is a patch....... here its is ( I am not 100% positive on this one, but I collected this image into my Fife Folder.... so it must be relevant..... but it could be WW2?):-

Thank you very much for having dated my badge, at least I know what it is
Cheers
Phil

Griff,
Your cloth patch should be worn as seen on the following picture:


It was worn on both sleeves during WWII.
Extra picture of 1FFY crews in 1945.

[GriffMJ]

Ahhh ok..... but you have to admit that the patch on the Pith helmet does appear to be this patch?

Still..... I was in doubt about its period of use..... thanks Phil

[GriffMJ]

Alan

if you got to http://thaneofife.org.uk/ffy-ww1.html

You will see a picture of recruits being trained near Skegness (1915)...... if you look at the Troop Corporal .... you will see the Brass Badge..... the recruits all wear the white metal badge You can zoom in for some good high detail as well.... its a cracking picture ...... proof positive I think. The date and the badge falls into the issued "economy" date...... I bet that Troop Corporal has seen service in France.

Got to this website: - http://web.mac.com/braeside/World_Wa...pt_1917.html#9

And you will see the badge being worn in pugaries in Egypt They are all wearing the white metal badge.... c1917

The patch ..... appears to be the red diamond of the "Camel Corps"

Ironically..... the chap that took the pictures..... joined the 14th (FFY) Btn Black Watch and died in 1918 , God rest him.

Private J W Moonie, Son of William Moonie of 66 Campbell St., Dunfermline.
Black Watch (Royal Highlanders), 14th (Fife and Forfar Yeomanry) Bn.
Date of Death: 2nd September 1918
Service No: 345260
Age: 26
Jim is buried in Peronne Communal Cemetery in the Somme. (near Private Keith... the chap I first found in the War Graves).

[Alan O]

Griff,

2 corrections - the 'economy' date as you put it was after 1916 and by 1915 the regt had yet to go to France - they went there in 1918 after the middle east.

If that is a brass badge then it is not economy but suggests a much earlier pre-war issue.

Great detective work by the way. Personally I think there is a fair chance that the existing regtl members kept their w/m badges duringt he Middle East and the adoption of BW uniforms was on rekitting to khaki on their return the France. Either way the brass economy badge in 1917-18 does not hold water.

[GriffMJ]

Morning Alan

Ok, then...

1. The Corporal I referred to "has seen action in France" possibly with a different Regiment.... he certainly has "That look".

2. I concede that the brass badge in that picture is possibly a brass early "Pattern 1"....... I have yet to see a brass "Pattern 1" for sale?


3. We have established that the "White Metal Thane" was worn in Puggaries in Middle East Operations.

4. Camel Corps patches are worn on Pith Helmets...... and the "Thane" is worn on it also (see the camel lying down with pith helmet on its head picture.... and that is a dark badge possibly brass on the front of the helmet in the "V" of the cloth band). I would also say that the badge was worn on the opposite side to the patch in the Pith Helmet by use of the "slider" into the cloth band.... although it could have been worn in the front "V" of the cloth band more often than not? Also I have at least two Pith Helmets with what appear to be "Thane" collar badges in the red diamond on the Camel Corps patch (see pics below).

Some nice blow up pics from the photo album:-


5. I think we have established now..... that the White Metal or Brass "Thane of Fife" badge is not made for or worn by the 14th (FFY) Btn, The Black Watch. Only the "Thane" collar badge is worn by the Officers...... "possibly" FFY buttons by all ranks. The 14th (FFY) Btn was essentially "The Black Watch"...... and I would have a BW cap badge (Territorial Version) in an FFY collection to represent the "association" of the FFY to the BW.

BTW the FFY were with the Scots Horse, Lanarks & Ayreshire in the Middle East, hence the picture of the two Scots Horse Troopers in the photo album.

[2747andy]

5. I think we have established now..... that the White Metal or Brass "Thane of Fife" badge is not made for or worn by the 14th (FFY) Btn, The Black Watch. Only the "Thane" collar badge is worn by the Officers...... "possibly" FFY buttons by all ranks. The 14th (FFY) Btn was essentially "The Black Watch"...... and I would have a BW cap badge (Territorial Version) in an FFY collection to represent the "association" of the FFY to the BW.

Griff,
I don't know how after only a few post here on the Forum you can determine that the 14th Black Watch never wore the Brass badge, shown in "Scottish Regimental Badges 1793-1971" by W.H. and K.D. Bloomer. Page 44, badge number 284. To use a black and white photograph to gauge whether a badge is brass or whitemetal can never be positive!

To assume that they would have worn the regular Black Watch badge is also IMO jumping to conclusions. Many Yeomanry soldiers were attached to other units and as you have said (and backed with images) were required to wear some of that units insignia. The 14th Black Watch appear to have been raised during the First World War as a separate unit. It is not uncommon for such "War Raised" units to have their own badge (Pals Bns for example).. I have been very happy to use Bloomers books as an accurate guide on Scottish badges for many years and will do so until I see hard facts and not assumptions to prove them inaccurate. Just to throw a spanner in the works, they also picture (in B&W) a Copper badge (282) which differs quite a bit from the standard patterns.

[GriffMJ]

Andy

I dont say that the 14th (FFY) Btn The Black Watch "never wore" the badge..... its clear that the collars were worn by the Officers. I say that the Brass badge was not made "specifically" for the 14th Btn.

The Photograph of Private Keith (Glengarry with the BW Badge) and his grave show the Black Watch badges..... not the "Thane of Fife"........ and the photo of the cadre of 14th (FFY) Btn soldiers show them wearing the Black Watch Tam o shanter (as the Officers)..... the "Thane" is not worn only the red hackle of the Black Watch.

Basically, I say that to associate the Brass badge with the 14th (FFY) Btn is misleading (from the "period" photographic evidence).

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

Andy

I dont say that the 14th (FFY) Btn The Black Watch "never wore" the badge..... its clear that the collars were worn by the Officers. I say that the badge was not made "specifically" for the 14th Btn.

Griff,
how do you arrive at that conclusion?

Andy

[GriffMJ]

Just from the period photos... (see also post #37)

The Glengary shows the BW Badge and also the Grave stone:-


S/20121 Private

John Wallace Keith

14th Bn. Black Watch

(Fife and Forfar Yeomanry)

02/09/1918, aged 22.

Peronne Communal Cemetery Extension

The image below shows a cadre of 14th (FFY) Btn Black Watch c1917, wearing the Black Watch "Tam'o Shanter" (and uniform)..... there is no badge..... just a red hackle.


The picture below shows the 14th (FFY) Btn Royal Highlanders football team c1918, the officers wear the Black Watch "Tam" with red hackle.... but they do wear the "Thane" collar badges

** Private Kieth info : British War Graves
** 14th (FFY) Btn photos: The Fife and Forfar Yeomanry and 14th (F. & F. Yeo.) Battn. R.H. 1914-1919 by Ogilvie, David Douglas

[GriffMJ]

The Wlikinson edition that I am taking reference from is the 1973 edition..... so in view of the re-strikes that Gaunt made (c1970) would have been in early production?...... is it not safe to assume that "Pattern 1" (fig: 187 page 40) is a good badge? And that Wilkinson would have had the "Knowledge" to now what had been faked at the time?

What I would like to see, is a period photo of 14th (FFY) Btn soldiers wearing the "Thane" (whatever metal) in the head dress........ that would utterly convince me that the "Battalion" wore the badge (beit in working dress or regimental).

[Alan O]

Many Yeomanry soldiers were attached to other units and as you have said (and backed with images) were required to wear some of that units insignia. The 14th Black Watch appear to have been raised during the First World War as a separate unit. It is not uncommon for such "War Raised" units to have their own badge (Pals Bns for example)..

Andy

There is a link to the regtl history earlier in the thread. It is quite clear that the 14th Bn BW was the name given to the F&F yeo in Jan 1917 when they re-roled to infantry. They had spent the previous year as F&F yeo serving in the Middle East; they were therefore not a new bn and had no need of a new badge as they already had the w/m ones. The photos show them wearing the white metal thain badge up to then and beyond. They returned to Europe and were in France in 1918 and again photos show them with black watch hackles and badges.

The conclussion that any brass badge is datable to 1917-18 alone (and thuis commands a premium as a BW badge) is therefore very questionable.

As an aside I would say that Wilkinson's badges are more reliable than Coxes as they are from a 1960s and very early 70s collection.


Alan