FiFe & Forfar Yeomanry c1914

[GriffMJ]

Hi All

Does anybody have some "good" examples of the brass & white metal badges from c1908-15........ it a minefield out there....... so many copies and restrikes. I have worked out the fakes..... but I still have not seen a "pukka" badge of either type from this period.

Many thanks in advance.....

[2747andy]

Griff,
here's a nice Wm badge, note the tiny flowers amongst the lower edges of the grass!

Andy

[GriffMJ]

Thats a lovley badge.... I didnt know there was that kind of detail in it. You do see many with the "mantle" broken off (I suppose because of cleaning accidents). An obvious "fake" spot.... is the shield I find..... all the fakes appear to have a large shield out of position...... the other is the "ground" edge between the rear legs.

[2747andy]

Griff,
here's a Brass one that has been altered a few times, i.e. brooched and then has had a slider, lead soldered onto it. It has lost the end of the helmet plumes but still a nice badge (note the absence of flowers and no void between rear legs, but still 100% OK). Also pictured is the bog standard repro, note the dip where the hind legs stand!

Andy

[2747andy]

Griff,
the Wm (F&F) and the Brass (14 BW) are two different (slightly) badges. So it's not a case of the metal being different! 14 BW has un-voided rear legs and no flowers.. Without seeing the back of the Wm badge you have just posted, I would tend to think it's a ringer!

Andy

[GriffMJ]

I am confused by Wilkinson's book...... he has:-

FFY
Page 41:

Fig 187. Brass; slider; 1908-56 (Pattern 1)
Fig 188. White Metal; slider; 1908-56 (Pattern 2..... as your Wm badge)

Pattern 1 is as:-

[2747andy]

That's Wilkinsons' for you, Bloomer is much better on Scottish badges, Wm with slider 1908-58, GM with slider 1917-19.

My simple guide:

F&F - Wm, Flowers and voided hind legs

14 BW - Gm, no flowers and non-voided hind legs!! - Works almost everytime (95%)! lol


Andy

[Alan O]

I have already posted a genuine F&F yeo badge from the 1940s that I know is correct. Unfortunately I have also had it next to a fake which was absolulutely identical. The die was the same one but the rear die was clearly worn out as the reverse detail was poor.

[signalman]

I have put this up before but with F.F.Yeo things seem to change, rounded reins and semi ? voided rear legs.

[Keith Blakeman]

This is a looped one I do like. Note the voided reins and another one between the plume and helmet. There's also a bit more fretting out around the knight's toe also.

[2747andy]

Griff,
not sure if you have understood the point which I have been trying to make? Despite what it says in Wilkinson, Gaylor and K&K, I believe the Brass badge was only worn from 1917-19 by the 14th (Fife and Forfar Yeomanry) Bn of the Black Watch, hence the reason for it being a scarce badge. Although I may be wrong?

Andy

[GriffMJ]

Hi Andy

I understand now.... I didnt connect 14th BW.... i would have understood 14th (FFY) Btn The Black Watch. I didnt know that they served in that way during the War.... sorry my ignorance of the Regiment.

[Alan O]

This linkage of the all brass badge and the 14 BW is unproven. It occurs in Bloomers. I wonder if it follows the following logic:

1. All brass = WW1 Economy (which it doesn't but bear with me)
2. The F&F yeo was reroled as Infantry as the 14th Bn only during WW1.
3. Therefore it was worn by the 14th Bn.

There is another posibility that the badge was nothing to do with WW1 economy at all. The linkage to the '14th bn' is thus broken. It could as easily have been worn pre-war with another order of dress.

As the BW wore a WM badge I am not sure of the logic of the F&F chnaging metals anyway.

[GriffMJ]

Alan

I tend to agree with you, c1917-18 many Yeomanry Regiments were used to reinforce regular regiments. When a Yeomanry Regiment did this they wore the Cap Badge of the Regiment they reinforced. If the FFY became a battalion of the Black Watch then I would have thought that they would have worn the period Cap badge of the Black Watch? Many Yeomanry Regiments struggled to get "Battle Honours" post war because they were considered part of a the "Regular" Regiment they joined..... and that Regular Regiment took the honours and not the Yeomanry (even though they may have fought as a "Yeomanry Squadron" unit with the Reg Regiment). Many Yeomanry's mamanged to get the Battle honours deserved through Parliament in recognition of their contribution.

Officers of the 14th BW would have been entitled to wear the collar badges of the FFY..... but I would have thought the cap badge would have been Black Watch?

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

Alan

I tend to agree with you, c1917-18 many Yeomanry Regiments were used to reinforce regular regiments. When a Yeomanry Regiment did this they wore the Cap Badge of the Regiment they reinforced. If the FFY became a battalion of the Black Watch then I would have thought that they would have worn the period Cap badge of the Black Watch? Many Yeomanry Regiments struggled to get "Battle Honours" post war because they were considered part of a the "Regular" Regiment they joined..... and that Regular Regiment took the honours and not the Yeomanry (even though they may have fought as a "Yeomanry Squadron" unit with the Reg Regiment). Many Yeomanry's mamanged to get the Battle honours deserved through Parliament in recognition of their contribution.

Officers of the 14th BW would have been entitled to wear the collar badges of the FFY..... but I would have thought the cap badge would have been Black Watch?

I think when it came to Scottish badges Mr and Mrs Bloomer knew their sh1t.. Again we have mention of a badge normally made in all whitemetal being made in all Brass as an economy badge!!!! (Shame on you Alan, lol)..

I will happily stick with Bloomers version, that it was a 14th BW badge and worn c.1917-19 (that would explain the scarcity).. As to collars (which I have a very basic knowledge of) I think the 14th had their own particular "Thane" pattern too?

Andy