WW2 RMD patch, Fake?

[Ray6930]

Thanks to all. I had meant battalion rather than division in my query but am glad I asked having now learnt more on the Beach sign .... anyone got a large felt B going spare?
Ray

[Irv]

Hi Guy's,

Some interesting information coming out of this thread but I'm still trying to find out about this Trident patch.

Need close up of badges with provenance The only badges with Provenance I have found have the horizontal stitch, all the others have the diagonal stitch.

IMO these are fake and produced in recent years, but I could be wrong, I need to have proof. I can see no reason why these patches weren't all produced by the same company in ww2. If so why would they have changed the way these were stitched. The machines were set up and wouldn't have been changed(IMO). Very easy to set up on a modern embroidery machine, but they got the stitch angle wrong.

I'm still open to persuasion

Regards
Irv

[Mike Jackson]

I'm trying to find something helpful to add. I've now seen images of the signs with horizontal stitching and have one in my collection. Most (yours) and those in the IWM feature a convincing looking trident. Some of these have a black cloth backing. The one in my collection has a pretty blunt trident, but black cloth backing. I also have three "spares" with diagonal stitching, all are mint, all are "blunt" and all have that curious "size" or paste backing. In my opinion, given the date of the dissolution of the RM Div and the years that elapsed before 116 (RM) Inf Bde was hurriedly formed in Jan 45, there were probably two production runs of the sign - well formed tridents for the RM Div and later the ill-formed weapon for 116 (RM) Inf Bde. If as I suspect not many of the latter actually reached Germany in time for them to be worn, this would account for the fact that they are relatively common, 70+ years later. The single sign below is from a very long-established collection and the pair are spare 116 (RM) Inf Bde (?) signs.
116 (RM) Inf Bde_KR and SKay.01.jpg116 (RM) Inf Bde.MJ.jpg

[Irv]

Thanks for the info Mike.

I think I still want to see an attached sign on a period piece to believe that these diagonal stitched signs are original. Otherwise it is all guess work.

Irv

[Mike Jackson]

Originally Posted by Irv

Thanks for the info Mike.

I think I still want to see an attached sign on a period piece to believe that these diagonal stitched signs are original. Otherwise it is all guess work.

Irv

Life's like that! Mike

[1664]

I had a close look at the trident badges when researching Personal Distinctions and didn't come to a conclusion despite seeing examples of both types that had provenance, examples of the badge being worn I included in the book -

368 includes a battledress with a 'diagonal' trident that has no backing
547 is a stunning example of a 'straight' that had a black material backing that was almost plastic like.
549 and 551 show two examples being worn.

The badge had two designations - firstly for the Division and then later for 116th Bde. The badge in 368 is from the Bde, the others are all the division, however to my mind the images are not clear enough to say categorically that the straight Trident was the early version for the Division and the diagonal was for the 116Bde - but it would not surprise me is this was the case.

The 'B' also meant different things at different times - the unit was initially designated RM Beach Battalion, then RM Beach Unit HQ before RM beach Group. 551 shows it being worn below an RM Division badge.

Yours
John

PS apologies I can't post the images from the book

[Mike Jackson]

John,
Which book are you referring to? Mike

[Irv]

Originally Posted by 1664

I had a close look at the trident badges when researching Personal Distinctions and didn't come to a conclusion despite seeing examples of both types that had provenance, examples of the badge being worn I included in the book -

368 includes a battledress with a 'diagonal' trident that has no backing
547 is a stunning example of a 'straight' that had a black material backing that was almost plastic like.
549 and 551 show two examples being worn.

The badge had two designations - firstly for the Division and then later for 116th Bde. The badge in 368 is from the Bde, the others are all the division, however to my mind the images are not clear enough to say categorically that the straight Trident was the early version for the Division and the diagonal was for the 116Bde - but it would not surprise me is this was the case.

The 'B' also meant different things at different times - the unit was initially designated RM Beach Battalion, then RM Beach Unit HQ before RM beach Group. 551 shows it being worn below an RM Division badge.

Yours
John

PS apologies I can't post the images from the book

Hi John,
Great to have your input into this issue. I'm going off to look up your references and I will be back.
Regards
Irv

[Irv]

Hi John,
Difficult to tell from the pictures in your book so I've taken some close up pictures to show the difference in quality. I've found that military badges, even the most mundane have a quality of manufacture. These diagonal stitched badges just don't have that
Have a look and see what you think.
Regards
Irv

[Irv]

Can't take a picture of the reverse of the horizontal stitch patch but I can post a picture of the diagonal stitch patch if required.

Regards
Irv

[Ray6930]

Irv, as well as general quality the horizontal stitching example has defined points on the trident whereas the diagonal one doesn't
Going to check my case and think I'll be hunting for a horizontal stitch one!
Ray

[Irv]

I hope you strike it lucky and find a horizontal stitched one

[Danny]

Hi,
There is another manufactures variation of this badge. The red material used is a bit darker and has slightly different stitching.

I was told that by John Bailey that this was the probably the first type worn by the Division.

Regards

Danny


2 (2) ed2 fs res.jpg DSCF1840 ed 1 res.jpg
2 (2) ed2 fs div.jpg DSCF1840 ed 1 div.jpg

[Irv]

Thanks Danny,
This goes back to the original idea that out of the four patches you show (IMO), from right to left, 2,3,4 are originals but 1 is a fake. I started this thread asking for someone who has an original uniform with provenance with this diagonal stitched patch on to please post it. All the patches with provenance have the horizontal stitch (and quality). As far as I can tell all the horizontal stitched patches have the black backing. No backing on the other patch.
Pardon my ignorance but I don't know who John Bailey is, but if he has the provenance behind the number 1 patch I would like to see it.

I said before that I am open to persuasion on this matter, but I do need to be persuaded with evidence.

Regards
Irv

[Irv]

These are all showing the horizontal stitch and quality of manufacture.


http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/insign...n-sign-592266/
http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30071854