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  #16  
Old 01-05-16, 11:47 AM
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Mike Jackson Mike Jackson is offline
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My father was a Commando Trained Royal Navy Signaller from 1953 and he wore the dagger badge. His father was also a RN Commando during the Second World War and he also wore the dagger badge. So you statement is either incorrect OR only applies to the Army.
Whether or not you agree, the "red, unsheathed dagger, blade pointing upwards, set on a black background" was stated by Howard Cole (Heraldry in War, Apr 47) as being "the badge of the Commando Brigades". The same sign features on a colour chart printed by HQ 21 Army Group in 1945 which depicts the formation signs of 21 Army Group as at 8 May 45 including the dagger as described above and attributed to 4 Command Brigade. The same design was painted on all vehicles of 3 Commando Brigade in the Far East for the period I served in the Brigade 1964-67. To my mind, this makes it a formation sign not a qualification badge. Mike
3 Cdo Bde 02.jpg
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  #17  
Old 01-05-16, 07:19 PM
sailorbear sailorbear is offline
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Originally Posted by James K View Post
My father was a Commando Trained Royal Navy Signaller from 1953 and he wore the dagger badge. His father was also a RN Commando during the Second World War and he also wore the dagger badge. So you statement is either incorrect OR only applies to the Army.
Really? You find me a picture of a WW2 Royal Navy Commando wearing a dagger badge and I'll believe it! the only "dagger" badge I've ever seen RN commandos wearing is the tombstone one worn on the cuff, previous to this they simply wore a shoulder title "Commando" and before that in WW2 RN COMMANDO, definitely to my knowledge no dagger badge.

As for a dagger badge being given out with the green beret in WW2 at Achnacarry, never heard it said before and not at Ardentinny (HMS Armadillo) either.

Regards

Tony
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  #18  
Old 01-05-16, 07:47 PM
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Really? You find me a picture of a WW2 Royal Navy Commando wearing a dagger badge and I'll believe it! the only "dagger" badge I've ever seen RN commandos wearing is the tombstone one worn on the cuff, previous to this they simply wore a shoulder title "Commando" and before that in WW2 RN COMMANDO, definitely to my knowledge no dagger badge.

As for a dagger badge being given out with the green beret in WW2 at Achnacarry, never heard it said before and not at Ardentinny (HMS Armadillo) either.

Regards

Tony
I don't want to make a meal of it, but as stated some time ago, the "dagger sign" was introduced in late 1944 in order to differentiate between those within Combined Operations who were engaged in close combat (ie the members of the four SS (later ) Cdo Bdes and the masses of members of Combined Operations who were not members of the SS (later Cdo) Gp. For example, RAF communicators serving on Landing Ships HQ, Landing Craft crews generally, Swazi Pioneers in Smoke Coys and masses of others in very important support jobs with Combined Operations HQ. There were exceptions of course - the joint RA/RN COBUs spring to mind - who were very much in the firing line. It was Mountbatten's ploy to expand Combined Operations ad infinitum - to create a joint force within the structure of UK forces. Combined Operations HQ even tried to extend the wearing of the Combined Operations sign to all the many Beach Groups and Beach Bricks and all SF organisations in the CMF such as LRDG, SAS, PPA etc etc. Fortunately it came to nothing. As far as I know there is little evidence of the SS (later Cdo) Bdes in NWE wearing the "dagger" pre-VE Day - I imagine they were too busy fighting to be bothered with such trivia as replacing signs on their BD blouses. Image is COBU in Normandy.
COBU.05.jpg
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  #19  
Old 01-05-16, 07:50 PM
James K James K is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Jackson View Post
Whether or not you agree, the "red, unsheathed dagger, blade pointing upwards, set on a black background" was stated by Howard Cole (Heraldry in War, Apr 47) as being "the badge of the Commando Brigades". The same sign features on a colour chart printed by HQ 21 Army Group in 1945 which depicts the formation signs of 21 Army Group as at 8 May 45 including the dagger as described above and attributed to 4 Command Brigade. The same design was painted on all vehicles of 3 Commando Brigade in the Far East for the period I served in the Brigade 1964-67. To my mind, this makes it a formation sign not a qualification badge. Mike
Attachment 148112
The red dagger on black background was and is the brigade insignia on vehicles it is also a qualification badge NOT a brigade insignia worn on uniform. It has never been worn by ranks who are not commando trained.
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  #20  
Old 01-05-16, 07:56 PM
James K James K is offline
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Originally Posted by sailorbear View Post
Really? You find me a picture of a WW2 Royal Navy Commando wearing a dagger badge and I'll believe it! the only "dagger" badge I've ever seen RN commandos wearing is the tombstone one worn on the cuff, previous to this they simply wore a shoulder title "Commando" and before that in WW2 RN COMMANDO, definitely to my knowledge no dagger badge.

As for a dagger badge being given out with the green beret in WW2 at Achnacarry, never heard it said before and not at Ardentinny (HMS Armadillo) either.

Regards

Tony
I don't care if you believe it or not Tony. The fact is you are wrong and if you don't believe that RN Commando's have never worn the Commando Dagger badge except on the "tombstone"? badge on the cuff take a look at the RN web page, do a bit of reading or just believe what you want. Did I mention that I worse the bloody thing myself having passed the AACC? Did you?
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  #21  
Old 01-05-16, 08:18 PM
sailorbear sailorbear is offline
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Originally Posted by James K View Post
I don't care if you believe it or not Tony. The fact is you are wrong and if you don't believe that RN Commando's have never worn the Commando Dagger badge except on the "tombstone"? badge on the cuff take a look at the RN web page, do a bit of reading or just believe what you want. Did I mention that I worse the bloody thing myself having passed the AACC? Did you?
Like I said produce the evidence? AND curb the attitude lad we don't want that on here, this is a collectors forum, we exchange views and learn from each other through provenance and evidence, you've made some pretty broad sweeping claims, telling many people with decades of experience of collecting and studying commando and special forces insignia, not to mention many former commandos from the modern day to the 1950's that they are wrong without a shred of tangible proof, that's just rude.

As for your last statement, if you want to start comparing dicks this isn't the place really!
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  #22  
Old 01-05-16, 10:38 PM
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Hi,
Attached is a photo of the letter requesting the change of nomenclature for Special Service/Commando units and a new formation sign.

The change was agreed to on the 4th December 1944.

Regards

Danny

PICT3106 ed2.jpg

PICT3108 ed.jpg
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  #23  
Old 02-05-16, 05:35 AM
nomadalpha nomadalpha is offline
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I completed my commando course [at the then Commando School RM, Bickleigh] in October 1957. Upon passing out as Kings Squad remained at RMB Eastney. Regular dress was No. 3's [Blues]. Battledress [3A's] rarely worn, these sported the titles only [ROYAL MARINES COMMANDO], Green berets were
frowned upon by the then hierachry. The Dagger sign was worn ONLY by 3rd Cdo Bde units [Bde HQ, 40 and 45]. 42 Commando was in cadre form at Bickleigh until July 1958, re-formed and went to the Med [Malta]. Immediately prior to embarking on HMS ALBION all ranks were ordered to have the Dagger sign sewn onto Battledress.
We lost the dagger sign in 1964 when re-dressed in Lovats.
Minor points, but may be of interest?
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  #24  
Old 02-05-16, 06:02 AM
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Mike Jackson Mike Jackson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
Hi,
Attached is a photo of the letter requesting the change of nomenclature for Special Service/Commando units and a new formation sign.

The change was agreed to on the 4th December 1944.

Regards

Danny

Attachment 148143

Attachment 148144
Danny, Outstanding. VMT. Political correctness hadn't been dreamed up in 1944, but the Swazi pioneers - seen here at Anzio so very much in the front line - and their comrades get a mention. Mike
Combined Ops_1991 Swazi Smok Coy_13 Mar 44_Anzio_IWM NA 12864.jpg
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  #25  
Old 03-05-16, 06:50 PM
Colin S Colin S is offline
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Default Commando Trained

Those who have stated that the Commando Dagger badge was introduced at the end of World War Two as a formation badge for Commando units are indeed right and it was worn by both Army and RM Commando units. It has also been worn by Royal Marines on battledress with RM Commando shoulder titles after World War Two but it was still a formation sign, not a badge of qualification. As Mike says, it was an Army initiative to treat it as a qualification badge after 1976, by which time the Royal Marines had ceased wearing it on uniform after battledress was phased out. The Royal Marines did resurrect it as a formation badge on DPM combat uniform for a short period in the 1990s until it was replaced as a formation badge for 3 Cdo Bde by the black dagger on an olive green square which is still worn today.

The red dagger on black triangle sign is still worn on Army No.2 Dress as a qualification badge but for combat dress the qualification badge is the shoulder title 'Army Commando' and, of course, the green beret. The same applies to the RM and RN Commandos. I have never seen the red dagger on black triangle worn by the Royal Navy since I qualified for my green lid in 1983.

Turning back to the original question, after WWII there was a big divide between the traditional blue beret Sea Service marines who dominated in Eastney and Deal and the newer green beret Commandos based in Plymouth, to such an extent that Commandos doing courses in Eastney in the 1950s had to change their berets while they were there. There are also photos of Swimmer Canoeists wearing blue berets while based at Eastney (as indeed they did during WWII). The rule in the 1950s seems to have been that a commando trained marine only wore a green beret when serving with a Commando unit.
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  #26  
Old 04-05-16, 11:06 AM
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Mike Jackson Mike Jackson is offline
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Default Commando Group formation sign

I unearthed this the other day - Sgt Christopher, 3 Cdo - photo taken at HQ 1 Cdo Bde, East Grinstead 1945 (in his Best BD):
3 Cdo_Sgt Christopher_at HQ 1 Cdo Bde East Grinstead 1945..jpg
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  #27  
Old 04-05-16, 12:31 PM
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Any idea where there base was in East Grinstead?
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  #28  
Old 04-05-16, 01:16 PM
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No idea - the only barracks in the vicinity in 1960 was Hobbs Barracks, Lingfield. Most of the hutted WW2 camps must have been demolished long before that. But if it was just HQ 1 Cdo Bde it could have been located in a requisitioned country house (the building I live in in Somerset was the HQ of a Bde in the Guards Armd Div and then Hqrs 3 US Armored Division 1943-44). Mike
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  #29  
Old 04-05-16, 02:25 PM
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manchesters manchesters is online now
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So,

As I collector of pre-1952 Qualification/Trade etc badges , can I cross this one of my list?

regards
__________________
Simon Butterworth

Manchester Regiment Collector
Rank, Prize & Trade Badges
British & Commonwealth Artillery Badges
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  #30  
Old 04-05-16, 02:53 PM
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54Bty 54Bty is offline
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So,

As I collector of pre-1952 Qualification/Trade etc badges , can I cross this one of my list?

regards
Yes.

If you check the bible on Qualification/Trade etc., badges you will see it is not listed under the WW2 dates.

Marc

Last edited by 54Bty; 04-05-16 at 03:51 PM. Reason: Text added.
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