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  #16  
Old 16-08-11, 04:34 PM
SAS1 SAS1 is offline
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The cap and badge look genuine and original so I would guess its a cap for a Royal Navy Officer attached to the Fleet Air Arm anywhere during the 1920s or possibly into the mid to late 1930s.

Brilliant...never thought of that...!
Yes, basically what you alluded to in your first post, when you mentioned 'Fleet Air Arm of the RAF...' The RAF had a distinguishing badge, the RN officers posted to the FAA I think had the distinguishing cap badge.
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  #17  
Old 16-08-11, 10:09 PM
RCAF_Mike RCAF_Mike is offline
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Is there photographic proof of this? I'd like to see the cap badge in wear before I'd accept it as original. As I stated earlier, it may have been a "one off" that a pilot had specially made for himself.....I don't recall ever hearing about this badge as an official issue.
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  #18  
Old 18-08-11, 05:10 PM
Aerowallah Aerowallah is offline
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All my books of between the wars have their few illustrations devoted to aircraft, not personnel close-ups. Yeovilton doesn't seem to be much help, they grant you one hour apparently.

How many RN types had flying status and escaped being dragooned into the RAF? Of that handful I would imagine one or two seconded to the RAF. SO maybe this is, in effect, a one-off.

I might try emailing Gieves for a quick date on the label. Does anyone have a contact or email address?

Many thanks.
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  #19  
Old 18-08-11, 07:17 PM
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I know the Gieves archivist and was in their archive last friday. I was helping them identify uniforms so they probably wont be of much help re the label...
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  #20  
Old 18-08-11, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Aerowallah View Post






Hi,

Your badge appears to be a late WW2 pattern RN officer's cap badge that has obviously had the anchor removed and an eagle supplanted in its place. Also, I noticed from the close-up photograph that there appears to be a trace of thread just below the eagles beak on the inside of the wreath, suggesting the original point from which the tips of the anchor were also removed, but not quite in their entirety. I've attached a partial scan of an early 1930's pattern RN cap badge which should help demonstrate my point.

Best regards,

Zob.
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File Type: jpg 048.jpg (72.8 KB, 30 views)
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  #21  
Old 19-08-11, 12:26 PM
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Default RNAS Pilot Cap

Here is my RNAS Pilot's cap - this is 1915 vintage, belonged to the first Canadian Naval officer to qualify as an Airship pilot in early 1915.

It is the small peak approx 1 1/2" wide at the base of the badge.

Bryan
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File Type: jpg RNAS Off cap b.jpg (65.7 KB, 40 views)
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  #22  
Old 19-08-11, 03:28 PM
Aerowallah Aerowallah is offline
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Hi, Zob

1. What makes this a late war RN badge?
2. Can someone at home remove the bullion without leaving holes or damage to the wool? I see none.
3. Would a possible one-off like this have been made specially, or adapted from an existing RN badge and thus the anchor removed by a tailor in the normal course? The work inside and out looks professionally done and undisturbed. It is unclear to me how the eagle could be affixed after the cap was built up.
4. Then there is the issue of the 1920s cap itself, and why a supposed late war badge is on it...

Rgds
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  #23  
Old 20-08-11, 12:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerowallah View Post
Hi, Zob

1. What makes this a late war RN badge?
2. Can someone at home remove the bullion without leaving holes or damage to the wool? I see none.
3. Would a possible one-off like this have been made specially, or adapted from an existing RN badge and thus the anchor removed by a tailor in the normal course? The work inside and out looks professionally done and undisturbed. It is unclear to me how the eagle could be affixed after the cap was built up.
4. Then there is the issue of the 1920s cap itself, and why a supposed late war badge is on it...

Rgds
Hi Aerowallah,
(1). Of all the RN cap badges that I've handled and that I know to have come from the First War period, and up until the mid 1930's., all of these seem to share similar characteristics of being slightly smaller, more squat and tighter in the bullion weave to those that were produced from the late 1930's and on through the Second World War and in this case up until 1953. In fact - the shape of the earlier RN patterns I would say corresponds more closely with the R.N.A.S. cap badge (although obviously a completely different pattern) being more drawn upwards as opposed to being more spread as was the case later. It's a subtle difference.
(2). On the point of being able to remove the bullion without leaving a hole or damage. Yes - it is terrible easy if you know what you are doing. The bullion feathers are actually hollow and fastened in place by a single thread. Once you snip the thread at one end the bullion coil simply pulls away. The art comes in measuring the right length bullion and matching the thread when trying to repair a rare pattern RN badge that has been cannibalise at sometime in its history.
(3) (4). Although, I do know that there are other existing patterns of R.N.A.S. cap badges that were worn during the First War period, and that featured the larger eagle (in silver), and which your cap appears to be emulating., I'm afraid I'm unable to comment any further on this point other than to say that I hope I've a least given you other avenues to follow.
Best regards,
Zob.
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  #24  
Old 20-08-11, 12:53 PM
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Thats a good explanation Zob.

I too have seen the anchor removed from RN Officer & PO Cap badges & replaced with some other form of device for whatever reason the wearer had at the time. I dont think done to deceive. If you did not know any better, you would not know it had been replaced.

Bryan
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  #25  
Old 20-08-11, 02:56 PM
Aerowallah Aerowallah is offline
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Do you agree with Mike, Zob? That it probably wasn't done to deceive?

In Carroll's book I see a reference to a 1926 Dress Regulations that describes the anchor without crown superimposed on "albatros" wings for RN and Marine pilots, of which there couldn't have been many if they were all drafted into the FAA of the RAF.

I wonder if that's a clue someone rigged up his own pre-regulation pattern in the early period, 1924-26. Otherwise if RN pilots pre-1937 had a regulation pattern, I don't see why such an adaptation would be tolerated.

And then there is the question of whether this is a 1940s badge...

Rgds
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  #26  
Old 20-08-11, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerowallah View Post
Do you agree with Mike, Zob? That it probably wasn't done to deceive?

In Carroll's book I see a reference to a 1926 Dress Regulations that describes the anchor without crown superimposed on "albatros" wings for RN and Marine pilots, of which there couldn't have been many if they were all drafted into the FAA of the RAF.

I wonder if that's a clue someone rigged up his own pre-regulation pattern in the early period, 1924-26. Otherwise if RN pilots pre-1937 had a regulation pattern, I don't see why such an adaptation would be tolerated.

And then there is the question of whether this is a 1940s badge...

Rgds
Hi Aerowallah,

Whether or not the cap was put together to deceive I'm afraid I couldn't say - but, to be quite honest considering its abnormalities that are far too many for my liking, my moot feeling is really quite simple: WW2 vintage RN cap (lable consideration taken) and cap badge with anchor removed and replaced with R.A.F. officer's pattern eagle.

Also on the point of whether or not this is a transition piece or for that matter affiliated to the Fleet Air Arm, or RAF - I seriously think not.

Best regards,
Zob.

Last edited by zob; 24-08-11 at 11:51 AM. Reason: Typo
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  #27  
Old 24-08-11, 02:32 AM
Aerowallah Aerowallah is offline
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Thanks for lending your keen eye! Rgds
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  #28  
Old 25-08-11, 03:28 PM
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Default RNAS? RAF? FAA of RAF? FRANKENSTEIN?

Hi gentlemen,
I have been asked before about this hat and I think it has been made up as I have not seen anything like it. I think the clue would be to remove the badge and see if there were prongs or hugs visable on the back. If so I believe it was made up.
Warren
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  #29  
Old 27-08-11, 06:47 PM
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What if the person doing it had covered the backing just to hide that fact...?
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  #30  
Old 23-09-11, 06:00 PM
Aerowallah Aerowallah is offline
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What's this?

Warren?

Raymond Collishaw, BTW.

Last edited by Aerowallah; 23-09-11 at 06:07 PM.
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