Isle of Man soldier ( 7th V.B. or WW1 Isle of Man Volunteers )

[Graham Stewart]

Originally Posted by Peter Brydon

The 7th ( Isle of Man ) Volunteer Battalion, Kings Liverpool Regiment, although only of company strength were the only unit in the British Isles to remain a Volunteer unit after 1908.

The following is from The Territorial Year Book- published in 1909.

The 7th (IOM) V.B. ceased to exist in March 1920



P.B.

P.B. - Were they regarded as an autonomous unit? The reason I ask is because I hold a copies of "The Annual Return of the Territorial Force" for 1908 & 1912 and the 7th(IOM)V.B., is not listed in either Annual and yet the 1912 edition does list 'new' units formed.

[Peter Brydon]

Graham,

The attached is from "The Volunteer Force Long Service Medal " by JMA Tamplin and explains the reasons for the Volunteers on the Island continuing to serve under the Act of 1863 and not becoming part of the Territorial Force.

Similar but less comprehensive explanation given by Ray Westlake in his "Collecting Metal Shoulder Titles " ( but I think he has the wrong shoulder title ).

With regard to your specific question, I only know what is mentioned in the Territorial Year Book i.e that the unit not being Territorials was under the G.O.C. Western Command, I don't know if that remained the situation from 1909 to 1920 but I will check in the books I have on IOM military history and see if I can find further information

[Graham Stewart]

Originally Posted by Peter Brydon

Graham,

The attached is from "The Volunteer Force Long Service Medal " by JMA Tamplin and explains the reasons for the Volunteers on the Island continuing to serve under the Act of 1863 and not becoming part of the Territorial Force.

Similar but less comprehensive explanation given by Ray Westlake in his "Collecting Metal Shoulder Titles " ( but I think he has the wrong shoulder title ).

With regard to your specific question, I only know what is mentioned in the Territorial Year Book i.e that the unit not being Territorials was under the G.O.C. Western Command, I don't know if that remained the situation from 1909 to 1920 but I will check in the books I have on IOM military history and see if I can find further information

It's a very interesting and unusual situation concerning this unit as I also have various copies of "The Annual Return of the Volunteer Corps" & the 7th(IOM)V.B., Kings(Liverpool Regiment) are certainly listed, but their establishment and strength returns are barely that of a single Company;-
1903 - Estab 4 officers & 120 Volunteers; Actual 1 & 125
1906 - Estab 5 officers 125 Volunteers; Actual 4 & 119

It must be the only unit within the U.K. at that time with the status of a "Battalion", which barely had the strength of Company.

[Toby Purcell]

Very interesting thread. I did not know about this unusual unit either.

[KLR]

No, not part of the TF at all. This as due to the status of the I of M.

There is an interesting 'problem' with their badges. All the HPs and Glengarry badges are titled to IoM Vols, it was only the new cap badges (OSD and WM for ORs) that are explicitly titled 7TH VB (IOM) THE KINGS L’POOL REGT The very similar (so similar that it must be made by the same maker) badge entitled ISLE OF MAN VOLUNTEERS only appeared, I believe, in 1914.

I do not know if the 7th VB cap badge was produced just after the appearance of the KC in 1902 or in 1908 when the unique status of the unit was defined.

[Peter Brydon]

Perhaps time to ask again about a query I have had for some time, I have asked on the Forum before but without success.

The front cover of "Soldier" magazine of October 1965 had a picture of the opening of Tynwald by Princess Margaret. The key to the photo mentions a Guard of Honour which included " Territorials of the Isle of Man Company,5th Battalion,The Loyal Regiment "

I have never been able to find if this company existed or if it was a mistake by the Soldiers reporter.

Does anyone have any information please.

P.B.

[Paul Spellman]

Hi Peter,
Other than the KLR, the only other Lancashire Regt I think has a connection to the IoM is the South Lancs who had a CCF unit affiliated to them from King Williams College,Castletown. see image.
The 5th Bn Loyals at the time of the Soldier article where based in Derby Bks,Bolton. I have a couple of copies of the Loyals Journal 'The Lancashire Lad' and can find no ref to a IoM connection to them.
I know from my time in the Army that Regimental Bands would often be away on tours and other duties which may have been the case for the Loyals Band being in the IoM.
Paul

[Peter Brydon]

Thanks Paul,

That is most interesting, if you could E mail me a copy of that to add to my notes on Cadets, I would be most grateful. I have wondered why the Collegiate transferred its affiliation from the South Lancs to the Liverpool Scottish but I suppose the school was just across the road from the Liverpool Scottish Drill Hall in Fraser Street.

I think we all know that you cannot believe everything you see in print but what is written in the Soldier Magazine about the 5th Loyals seems so certain.

Trying to find information on some aspects of the military in the Isle of Man seems to be difficult especially post WW2.

I am beginning to wonder if the 5th Loyals were at camp on the Isle of Man at the time of the opening of Tynwald ceremony and that is how the confusion came about.

Peter

[Paul Spellman]

Well Blow me down
Look what I found
There was an Isle of Man Company of the 5th Bn Loyal Regt 1961-67.
I found a later copy of the journal and it was in there.
Paul

[Peter Brydon]

Paul,

That is fantastic, it has solved a mystery I had been tying to answer for years, next question- did the IOM company have any insignia specific to them.

Thanks again.

Peter

[KLR]

Brilliant. Paul please could you let me know the name of the journal, which year, volume / issue no and page no.
thanks

Incidentally, Peter's clip from the medal book (again details please sometime), mentions IoM Vols up to 1914 but 7VB thereafter. I would have thought 1908 rather than 1914 but the mystery continues !

[Graham Stewart]

Originally Posted by KLR

Incidentally, Peter's clip from the medal book (again details please sometime), mentions IoM Vols up to 1914 but 7VB thereafter. I would have thought 1908 rather than 1914 but the mystery continues !

001.jpg
Taken from the October 1914 Army List.

[Peter Brydon]

Graham,

But then this is the heading to the Kings Liverpool Regiment entry in the September 1915 Army List.

Peter

[Graham Stewart]

Originally Posted by Peter Brydon

Graham,

But then this is the heading to the Kings Liverpool Regiment entry in the September 1915 Army List.

Peter

Same heading as in the October 1914 & my April 1915 Army Lists and listed in column 981a as the 7th(IOM)V.B., Kings, with McKenzie still at its head, but now a Major.

[KLR]

It looks as though they were as confused as we are !
I'll go through ALs 1881 - 1920 when I'm next in a library.