2nd VB - Royal West Kent Regiment

[grumpy]

re. the RWK signallers group: clearly post 1902. The SSS badge had a life 1901 to 1912 minimum, which does not help!

The definition of shot is not brilliant, but I suspect we are looking at corded shoulders and white on scarlet worsted S/Ts. This suggests early rather than late in the period. According to Sweeney the corded shoulders had a very short production life, 1903 to replace the removable straps, only to be changed for permanent shoulder straps 18 months later in late 1904. However, he notes cords being mixed with straps to at least 1907. Metal S/ts elbowed out the worsted in quantity from about 1907 as an economy measure.
My other problem is lack of Austrian knots on cuffs which whilst not mandatory for VF, were widespread, to distinguish from regulars.

I won't die in a ditch but 1905-6 is as close as I get.

[Keith Blakeman]

Originally Posted by grumpy

re. the RWK signallers group: clearly post 1902. The SSS badge had a life 1901 to 1912 minimum, which does not help!

The definition of shot is not brilliant, but I suspect we are looking at corded shoulders and white on scarlet worsted S/Ts. This suggests early rather than late in the period. According to Sweeney the corded shoulders had a very short production life, 1903 to replace the removable straps, only to be changed for permanent shoulder straps 18 months later in late 1904. However, he notes cords being mixed with straps to at least 1907. Metal S/ts elbowed out the worsted in quantity from about 1907 as an economy measure.
My other problem is lack of Austrian knots on cuffs which whilst not mandatory for VF, were widespread, to distinguish from regulars.

I won't die in a ditch but 1905-6 is as close as I get.

The Postcard is dated 1908.

I've lifted a bit of info on the Sartain family in Woolwich. I have to pay for more but I think it'll be worth it. Having the middle names will be a great help.

Amelia is the mother of both Harry and Herbert. Lizzie is mentioned on cards and I'm certain there's another from Will amongst them.

Household SARTAIN, Amelia 1859 52 F Woolwich London
Household SARTAIN, Ethel 1886 25 F Woolwich London
Household SARTAIN, Harry Clarke 1895 16 M Woolwich London
Household SARTAIN, Herbert John 1890 21 M Woolwich London
Household SARTAIN, Lizzie 1893 18 F Woolwich London
Household SARTAIN, Maria 1849 62 F Woolwich London
Household SARTAIN, William James 1891 20 M Woolwich London

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Keith Blakeman

The Postcard is dated 1908.

I've lifted a bit of info on the Sartain family in Woolwich. I have to pay for more but I think it'll be worth it. Having the middle names will be a great help.

Amelia is the mother of both Harry and Herbert. Lizzie is mentioned on cards and I'm certain there's another from Will amongst them.

Household SARTAIN, Amelia 1859 52 F Woolwich London
Household SARTAIN, Ethel 1886 25 F Woolwich London
Household SARTAIN, Harry Clarke 1895 16 M Woolwich London
Household SARTAIN, Herbert John 1890 21 M Woolwich London
Household SARTAIN, Lizzie 1893 18 F Woolwich London
Household SARTAIN, Maria 1849 62 F Woolwich London
Household SARTAIN, William James 1891 20 M Woolwich London

1908 would be right as that year marked the formation of the Territorial Force and the transition of Volunteer Battalions into Territorial Battalions (although for legal reasons a man had to leave the former and re-enlist in the latter and not all chose to do this as the terms and conditions were significantly different). If you look at the first photo that you posted you can see the Austrian knots of a Volunteer Battalion, whereas if you look at the signallers group you can see that these have been removed indicating that they are now Territorials, which goes some way to corroborate the 1908 date that you have quoted.

[grumpy]

Just as well I didn't climb into the ditch.

Interesting that cord shoulders had survived that long ...... the TF were semi-autonomous in many matters and the County Associations were their own purchasing authority. I guess they were buying old stock.
Joe Sweeney made the point that corded hung on for ages and here we have an example.

I have played around with the photo of SSS corporal and it cleans up wonderfully. His SSS badge is unusual: most I have seen were on the other cuff.

As he is VF/TF without a doubt, the five-point star right cuff does not mean skill in distance-judging, whereas it would if he were a regular.
The sergeant seated on the ground [a spot usually reserved for the most junior!] has the SNCO proficiency 4 point star over his chevrons and flags, by the way.