Royal Dublin Fusiliers Band

[peter4447]

Recently acquired this photo which, I believe, shows a Band of the Royal Dublin Fusilers. Apart from an NCO (a Cpl who wears a wound stripe on his left cuff) the Band is made up of young boys so I assume this was taken at a Training Depot, probably c.1917/18. No WW1 medal ribbons are being worn.
Although the number is not completely clear it looks as though the Bass Drum belonged to the 1st Bn Royal Dublin Fusiliers.
The Lyre Badges all carry a scroll beneath and I am wondering if anyone has come across these before and knows what the wording is on them? One also appears to have a cloth coloured backing.
Brass cap badges and buttons are worn although one of the young Band members wears a blackened cap badge and a couple of others are also wearing blackened buttons.
Grateful for any assistance with this one.
Many thanks
Peter4447

[John Mulcahy]

Peter

this is a very interesting photograph and thank you for posting it. I believe this is the lyre badge with the scroll "Royal Dublin Fusiliers" in white metal taken from the other ranks cap badge added.

I have known of this badge from "Badges of the Royal Dublin Fusiliers, booklet 2" by Jonathen Maguire produced in 1997. At that time Jonathen was one of the foremost collectors of R.D.F. insignia.

Illustrated in that booklet is an image of what is described as "An interesting hybrid was employed by the band circa 1899-1922 in the form of an other ranks scroll from the service dress cap badge which had been previousley taken into use on the first of October 1898. Soldered onto the base of a King's crown, general pattern army musicians "lyre" badge... Produced by the Battalion armouries as a regimental anomaly showing the individuality and pride taken by officers and men in bending dress regulations.

The image is shown below , unfortunately the quality of the booklet is poor.

I also have seen this come up for sale at least once and may have a better image, which if I can find it I shall post it. Although Jonathen is speculating about the source of the badge I suspect he is right and this photo you have posted is the first evidence I have seen of its potential actual existance. In the same booklet a bullion version is shown courtesy of a J. Barker in Middlesex.

I have not come across an official sealed pattern for this, perhaps forum member "Grumpy" may have some experience of this regimental pattern badge.

John

[John Mulcahy]

Forgot to add the image

[peter4447]

Many thanks indeed for such an interesting reply John.
The badge is only worn on the right arm in the photograph and not all of those whose right arms are visible in the photo are wearing this badge. The seven that are, however, all very clearly have the scroll beneath.
Peter

[Toby Purcell]

Fascinating stuff and another example of what makes the British Army's Regimental system and its effect upon insignia so immensely interesting. Thank you for posting Peter and to John for the illuminating reply. One more bit of obscure knowledge to add to the pot.

[Toby Purcell]

I've learned that the Regimental Depot was at "The Barracks", Naas, in County Kildare. The last battalion of Dublin Fusiliers moved out of the barracks on 7th. Feb. 1922. The last British troops were the Leicesters who handed over the barracks to the Free State Army forces. The flag pole had been sawn down and removed so that the tri-colour could not be hoisted. The new garrison erected a temporary one at the main gate. Given the presence of the 'boy' bandsmen and the fact that the band was usually located at the Depot it seems likely to be the site where the photograph was taken.

The Irish Army occupied the barracks until 1928 when it was closed and handed over to the Office of Public Works. The last to occupy the barracks was the Army Apprentice School which was formed and reinstated the barracks in 1956. The barracks was finally decommissioned by the school on Monday 21st. Sept. 1998, although a reserve artillery unit remained in place until 2002. I enclose a contemporary post card image of the barracks as well as some B&W photos during its time with the RDF.

I am intrigued by the blackened badges as there were no Volunteer Battalions in Irish Regiments from whom to retain a Rifles tradition. However, they did have 1 extra Militia Battalion each that later became Reserve units and these too sometimes had a Rifles background from their time as independent units. I can only think that this might be the origin of the few black buttons and badges seen.

[Peter Brydon]

A very interesting thread, just what theForum should be all about. Brings back memories of holidays in Naas in the dim and distant past.

I remember visiting the Irish National Stud which is close by and finding a Liverpool/ Military connection.

This is from Wilkepedia:


The Japanese Gardens at Tully were created between the years 1906-1910. Devised by Colonel William Hall-Walker (later Lord Wavertree), a wealthy Scotsman of a famous brewery family and laid out by Japanese craftsman Tassa Eida and his son Minoru.

Tassa Eida, his wife and two sons, Minoru and Kaiji, lived at Curragh House, which is now the Racing Apprentice Centre of Education. The name Minoru which means 'light of my eye' or the 'favourite one' was chosen by Colonel Hall-Walker for his favourite Tully-bred colt. Tassa remained at Tully until 1911 when he and his family moved to London England to create another garden.

When leased to King Edward VII for his racing career the colt Minoru carried the royal colours to victory in the Derby of 1909 to joyous cheers of "Good Old Teddy!" Eida died in 1912 on his intended return journey to Japan and no more was heard of him or his family until Brian Eida, a son of Minoru, turned up as a tourist in the late 1980s to admire the work of his grandfather Tassa.

In 1915, Colonel Hall-Walker departed to England, presenting his entire Tully property to "The Nation." His Stud Farm became the British National Stud and the Japanese Gardens entered a period of relative obscurity until 1945. In that year (Tully properties having returned to the Irish Government in 1943) the Irish National Stud Company was formed. In the following year, 1946, after a gap of 34 years, the Japanese Gardens got a horticultural supervisor.

[Toby Purcell]

As suspected the Kildare Militia Regiment became a Rifle Corps in 1855, and when it took up its territorial designation of 3rd (Militia) Battalion RDF in 1881, it retained its black buttons and badges. I have never seen such black badges in the flesh and they must be exceedingly rare.

There are some more, great photos of the band here: http://www.royaldublinfusiliers.com/...otographs.html

[Neil Pearce]

Great stuff guys, and very interesting. Not surprisingly, I had never heard of the Kildare Militia. A quick google revealed this badge for sale, although I can't comment on whether it's original. Any comments?

http://www.arcticmedals.com/catalog/...27/8272511.htm

[John Mulcahy]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

The barracks was finally decommissioned by the school on Monday 21st. Sept. 1998, although a reserve artillery unit remained in place until 2002.

I have enjoyed this thread also, I know Devoy Barracks (as it was renamed), that last unit was 6th Bty 6th Field Artillery Regiment.

John

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Neil Pearce

Great stuff guys, and very interesting. Not surprisingly, I had never heard of the Kildare Militia. A quick google revealed this badge for sale, although I can't comment on whether it's original. Any comments?

http://www.arcticmedals.com/catalog/...27/8272511.htm

The badge looks good to me, and how unusual to have serpents as insignia (shades of St Patrick banishing the island of its serpents methinks).

Such great, great regiments, and politics aside, I still find it difficult not to think of Ireland and its soldiers as part of our Island race. We are militarily somehow less without them.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by John Mulcahy

I have enjoyed this thread also, I know Devoy Barracks (as it was renamed), that last unit was 6th Bty 6th Field Artillery Regiment.

John

Apparently there is nothing left now of Devoy Bks but the gatehouse with a clock that does not work John:

http://hidden-gems.eu/Naas%20devoy%20barracks.pdf

[BILL DUGGAN]

In Lieut-Colonel H. N. Coles 1980 book 'The Story of Aldershot' he states that the R.D.F was in Tourney Barracks, Marlborough Lines, North Camp. in the pre W.W.1 period.

This barracks was later the depot of The A.C.C. when the new St Omer Barracks was being built.

I knew the barracks well.

Several years ago I was curious about the famous blue caps of R.D.F.

I spent a day researching at the Prince Consorts Library and later painted this drawing of what the R.D.F. looked like when they was at Tourney Barracks.

There was once a Drum-Majors sash in the National Army Museum, Chelsea that showed this odd shade of blue. It was a sort of more vivid colour of R.A.F. blue. (not always noted by postcard artists; who gathered most of their research from black & white photo's)

The regiment was of course nicknamed 'Neill's Blue Caps'

I noted from photographs that R.D.F wore a small fusilier badge on the front of their folding side caps; not on the side, like other regiments. (see picture)

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by BILL DUGGAN

In Lieut-Colonel H. N. Coles 1980 book 'The Story of Aldershot' he states that the R.D.F was in Tourney Barracks, Marlborough Lines, North Camp. in the pre W.W.1 period.

This barracks was later the depot of The A.C.C. when the new St Omer Barracks was being built.

I knew the barracks well.

Several years ago I was curious about the famous blue caps of R.D.F.

I spent a day researching at the Prince Consorts Library and later painted this drawing of what the R.D.F. looked like when they was at Tourney Barracks.

There was once a Drum-Majors sash in the National Army Museum, Chelsea that showed this odd shade of blue. It was a sort of more vivid colour of R.A.F. blue. (not always noted by postcard artists; who gathered most of their research from black & white photo's)

The regiment was of course nicknamed 'Neill's Blue Caps'

I noted from photographs that R.D.F wore a small fusilier badge on the front of their folding side caps; not on the side, like other regiments. (see picture)

Yes, that makes sense Bill, as the Regular battalions were usually based in substantial garrisons of brigade size or larger, either in Britain, or in one of the colonies, whereas after 1881 the Depot was usually in a small barracks town, or city associated with its territorial recruiting area. These small barracks brought together the Regular depot companies (2 per battalion) with associated militia units in a single location at which an economy of scale could be achieved by co-locating the Regular training staff from both types of unit. Conversely, the volunteer battalions of the regiment remained dispersed throughout the entire recruiting area, generally with a company centred on an urban drill hall and the instructors often had to visit them.

The blue colour associated with the RDF was indeed quite bright and must have made a colourful display when they were on parade, because as well as the drum majors sash, the emblazons of the side and base drums was the same hue.

As regards the Field Service Cap and its front placed badge, it does seem that it was not common, although interestingly the Northumberland Fusiliers also wore their badge there and some other units wore a cord boss at the front and a standard forage cap badge on the side.

[Keith Blakeman]

Very good thread and excellent research Toby. Nice collection of FSC's, I have one to The Buffs, black with buff piping and boss, silver dragon with S&G buttons.