7th (Cyclist) Bn Welsh Regt - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

peter4447 · #1 03-11-10, 05:09 PM

Grateful for any assistance on this one please.
I am trying to establish when the photo was taken as I was under the impression that blackened cap badges and black buttons were worn and yet, clearly, brass cap badges and buttons are the order of the day.
In addition one OR is also wearing Welsh dragon collar dogs.
My feeling is that this would have been around 1908 but most grateful for any help with this.
Peter4447

41st · #2 03-11-10, 06:39 PM

Peter,
Is this the PC that was on eBay listing it as 7th Battn because that's what is written on the bass drum?
Regards,
Kevin

peter4447 · #3 03-11-10, 07:01 PM

Hi Kevin
It is indeed.
On the actual photo the Bass drum and the brass instruments appear to be in 'as new' condition as, indeed, are the uniforms.
The Bass Drum scroll reads: 7th Cyclists Battalion The WelCh Regiment.
On the epaulette of the Drum Major can clearly be seen the 'T 7 Welsh' badge.
The chap wearing the collar badges appears to be the Bandmaster.
Perhaps, however, from your question all is not what it seems!
Kind regards
Peter

Alan O · #4 03-11-10, 07:33 PM

So does anyone have a picture of the 7th Bn in black insignia?

peter4447 · #5 03-11-10, 07:46 PM

I don't have one Alan but I was browsing the Great War Forum recently and there is a PC on there of some NCO's of the 1/7th (Cyclist) Bn Welsh Regt (again the epaulette badge is very clear) wearing blackened Welsh cap badges and black bugle horn buttons.
Peter

41st · #6 05-11-10, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan O

So does anyone have a picture of the 7th Bn in black insignia?

Yes, I have a couple and so do a few friends of mine in our local Military History club.
The Drum Major has odd collars for this unit, I'll look into it over the weekend.

41st · #7 10-11-10, 08:25 PM

Peter,
Found what I was looking for.
The Bandmaster is wearing collars that were worn by the 2nd Glamorgan Rifle Volunteer Corps.
In 1908 when the Volunteers were converted to the TF the 2nd Glams (3rd VB Welsh by then) were lost as a unit but in part they transfered to a new TF Battn. The 7th Cyclists.
According to Churchill they only changed to the rifles dark green tunic and blackened badges in 1912.
So there we have it, in all probability he's a an ex 2nd Glam man photographed before 1912.
Cofion gorau,
Kevin

peter4447 · #8 10-11-10, 08:43 PM

Absolutely brilliant Kevin - It really dates the picture perfectly and I am very grateful to you indeed.
Diolch yn fawr
Peter

Alan O · #9 10-11-10, 08:51 PM

Still odd that they were wearing black badges in WW1 but not earlier. I would have expected it to be the other way around!

Alan

Rob Miller · #10 02-01-11, 10:52 AM

On the same subject, I bought this card recently on a well known auction site as "Private 7th? Welsh Regiment Cyclist Battalion", the buttons are of the black bugle type but the cap badge appears a bit shiney to be blackened, so my questions are please, is this a Private of the 7th Cylist Bn and what date would you estmate it to be. Thanks, Rob.

Keith Blakeman · #11 02-01-11, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 41st

Peter,
Found what I was looking for.
The Bandmaster is wearing collars that were worn by the 2nd Glamorgan Rifle Volunteer Corps.
In 1908 when the Volunteers were converted to the TF the 2nd Glams (3rd VB Welsh by then) were lost as a unit but in part they transfered to a new TF Battn. The 7th Cyclists.
According to Churchill they only changed to the rifles dark green tunic and blackened badges in 1912.
So there we have it, in all probability he's a an ex 2nd Glam man photographed before 1912.
Cofion gorau,
Kevin

Are they still wearing their nickel VB/RV cap badges also ?

41st · #12 02-01-11, 04:24 PM

Keith,
They certainly aren't wearing the standard pre 1908 pattern 1st, 2nd or 3rd VB cap badge, but I don't believe these were worn on service dress. I wouldn't expect them to either as it was not just a transfer of the V.B to the 7th Welsh, but the formation of a new unit.
My earlier post was incorrect when I referred to the old 3rd VB being transferred to the 7th (sorry for that) they were in fact transferred to the new 5th TF Battn.
The new 7th TF Battn was in fact made up of from a nucleus of the cyclist sections of the old three Glamorgan VBs of the Regiment. Hence our man wearing the 3rd VB collars.
Rob,
He is highly likely to be 7th. The uniform boys should be able to confirm that he appears to be wearing a 1907 pattern jacket.
I've seen plenty of photos of this battalion with black buttons and what appears to be the standard bi-metal cap badge, but he could be anywhere between 1908 and the end of the war.

Toby Purcell · #13 02-02-11, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peter4447

Grateful for any assistance on this one please.
I am trying to establish when the photo was taken as I was under the impression that blackened cap badges and black buttons were worn and yet, clearly, brass cap badges and buttons are the order of the day.
In addition one OR is also wearing Welsh dragon collar dogs.
My feeling is that this would have been around 1908 but most grateful for any help with this.
Peter4447

The man wearing collar badges is the Bandmaster, a Warrant Officer (one of up to a maximum of 3 in a battalion at that time, the others being the Schoolmaster and THE Sergeant Major (later RSM)). As Warrant Officers wore uniform distinctions akin to those of an officer (note his 'Sam Browne' belt and officer 'style', but not quality tunic), they alone of ORs can often be seen wearing regimental collar badges during this pre-war period.

peter4447 · #14 05-02-11, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

The man wearing collar badges is the Bandmaster, a Warrant Officer (one of up to a maximum of 3 in a battalion at that time, the others being the Schoolmaster and THE Sergeant Major (later RSM)). As Warrant Officers wore uniform distinctions akin to those of an officer (note his 'Sam Browne' belt and officer 'style', but not quality tunic), they alone of ORs can often be seen wearing regimental collar badges during this pre-war period.

Many thanks indeed for that Toby it is greatly appreciated.
Regards
Peter

Toby Purcell · #15 06-02-11, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peter4447

Many thanks indeed for that Toby it is greatly appreciated.
Regards
Peter

The bandsmen are also wearing the belt with snake buckle from the 1914 Leather Equipment issued specifically to the Service battalions raised by Kitchener's clarion call "Your Country Needs You" so this dates the photo to 1915-16 I would suggest.