WELSH Pre 1920 Slip On Titles Opinion

[Phill Lockett]

Hi Team

Your thoughts and opinions on these WELSH slip on titles.

I have read BOBD(V1 pg8) and have read the posts on BBF regarding the "WELSH" v " WELCH" spelling and beleive these to be WWI WELSH slip on titles. As a collector I found this fascinating and enjoyable subject , vry complex to the outsider!

These were sold as WWII , my thoughts were based on the above, hence opinions.

These are machine embroidered on thick Melton(?) wool.

The measurments are:
Top: 1.18inch(30mm) x 2.95 inches(75mm)
Bottom: 1.18inches(30mm) x 2.75 inches(70mm)

I have searched the internet for similar examples, the only ones I have seen are WWII era staright and curved in Black on wool(?), which are differant in style and material used.

cheers

Phill

[JerryBB]

I would agree these are earlier than WWII, I'd happily have them in my collection

[Phill Lockett]

Thanks Jerry

Would these be pre 1920, as BODD mentions these slip on titles were only used for a short period of time and were removed from shoulder to top of arm due to equipment use obsuring the titles.

Also which WELSH regiments would of used these?

cheers

Phill

[Phill Lockett]

Hi Team

Just found on the forum, WWI slip on titles by MH331 in Albums shows a curved WELSH title.

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...p?albumid=3043

Phill

[Postwarden]

The answer to the question is in the records of the Army Clothing Factory in this entry dated 8/4/1916.

Titles, Embroidered SD The following titles now embroidered, curved on a No 2 size patch 2” deep, will in future be made in a straight line on the No 3 size patch 1 ¼ inches deep.

Essex, Hants, Kings, Devon, Cork, Welsh, Wilts, W York, E York, York.

Jon

[41st]

Here you go Phil, an example of the shoulder title being worn on the top of the arm by a member of the WR in Egypt/Mesopotamia during the 1st WW. These would only have been worn by The Welsh Regiment.
Hwyl,
Kevin

[Phill Lockett]

Thank you Jon

That solves the mystery of why there are/were curved and straight lettered titles.

Kevin thanks for showing the image of the title in use, I shall documnet the image with the WELSH slip on Titles.

Also good to know only worn by the WELSH Regiment.

Another question, were there units during WWI having the WELCH spelling?

Much appreciated for the replies and good to add a WWI example to my collection.

Phill

[Peter Brydon]

The Kings examples mentioned in Jon’s post shown here.

P.

[Phill Lockett]

Thank you Peter

Its great seeing the 2 styles of WWI slip on's side by side and the transition to WWII era.

That is a great display, are the Pugaree Flashes and KINGS white on red WWI era?

Phill

[41st]

Phil,
Yes the 16th Batt’n wore a C spelling cap badge. There is also a reference to an order for the 11th to wear a C spelling shoulder title but I have never seen any evidence to show that it was actually worn. Plenty of use of the C spelling for regimental title in various service battalions of the WR in service papers.
Kevin

[Phill Lockett]

Thanks Kevin

Why was there accepted use of "S" and "C" by higher command or Army authroities when having official titles , cap badges made during WWI.

I'm guessing they would have consulted historical records for input?

To some limited knowledge I can undersatnd the historical use of S and C in cap badges but cloth was fairly new to be issued on a greater scale during WWI.

Again I realize these questions are 108 years late and possibly the answers are lost to history but it is an interesting history of ots own.

thanks for the follow up.

Phill

[41st]

Phil,
I should have been more specific, the proposal for a C spelling shoulder title was for a metal title.
There are a number of posts and at least one thread dealing with why there was a desire to use C instead of S, mainly due to the fact that Welch was the historic spelling and often encountered on early Victorian items.
Kevin

[Phill Lockett]

Thanks Kevin

I could not find the thread regarding why "there was a desire for C instead of S."

I have scoured the formation signs and Guards/Infantry forums and found referances to the change and other tidbits on the subject.

Maybe someone can point it out.

Again thanks for your input Kevin ,made my day to find out these are WWI pieces.

Phill

[JerryBB]

Phil,
according to the regimental histories there was a document that used the C spelling and though it is thought that it was a transcription error, the two regiments, Welsh and RWF, petitioned to use the C spelling but meanwhile some of the VB's used it anyway on buttons and badges as well as on documents.
In 1920 the war office sanctioned the use of the C spelling, though the modern regiment the Royal Welsh have returned to use of the S.

[41st]

Just to be very, very clear on this issue, the use of Welch with a C was common throughout the History of the 41st Foot appearing on badges and buttons during the Victorian period and long before the various volunteer rifle units became volunteer battalions of The Welsh Regiment.