London Rifles?.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by MBrockway

Are we saying then that the Londons dropped the 'T' after the old pre-1908 affiliations were restored in 1916 then?

They were stilll TF units of course and AFAIK they remained administered by the London TF rather than the Rifles.

Was it just the London battalions that dropped the 'T'? Or was this across all the TF nationwide?

Forgive my ignorance, but was there a change to the Dress Regulations on this in 1916?

That's an important fact for photo dating.

The T was dropped at some point after the introduction of conscription in 1916, as battalions then received drafts of battle casualty replacements containing men of all categories. By 1918 there was very little difference between the regular, territorial and service battalions. The replacement process changed, but of course each battalion took time for its character to change, depending on its own unique circumstances and associated casualty rate

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by MBrockway

I called it 'cannon' because signalman, the OP, had named his image files "tiny cannon"

I had it clocked as a Boer War vintage 200lbs Mark IV RML 7 pounder Mountain Gun.


It doesn't look like a Maxim machine gun to me.

It's quite a well known image of a pre-war infantry detachment still wearing rifle green frocks and manning one of their battalions two maxim guns on a wheeled carriage. The two guns were commanded by a subaltern assisted by a sergeant. I have seen photos of the same scene. Several angles were shot, the unit was 3rd Bn KRRC and the year 1895.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by MBrockway

My own KRR officer photos split roughly 50:50 with- vs without- STs.

No collar badges of course except for crossed rifle and shovel of the two Great War pioneer battalions (and presumably also the pioneers in the four regular battalions).

Yes the wearing of STs was not consistent in both regiments, even within battalions, so it seems to be something that was not rigidly enforced, perhaps because they were an irritant when field equipment shoulder braces were placed on and off in the line.

[MBrockway]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

It's quite a well known image of a pre-war infantry detachment still wearing rifle green frocks and manning one of their battalions two maxim guns on a wheeled carriage. The two guns were commanded by a subaltern assisted by a sergeant. I have seen photos of the same scene. Several angles were shot, the unit was 3rd Bn KRRC and the year 1895.

Are you talking about the picture I posted, rather than signalman's picture of the RML 7 pounder?

You'll notice my original filename for the picture is "KRRC - 1st Cadet Btn - Maxim gunners - postcard by Tuck [eBay].jpg" - i.e. I'm well aware it's a Maxim MG. Though Tuck's painting is of the 1st Cadet Battalion, KRRC rather than 3/KRRC. I have posted it again below with a less tight crop so Tuck's title in the bottom right corner is visible.

I also attach a photo of the KRRC 1st Cadet Battalion machine gun section from the cadets' annual camp in August 1913. In khaki SD this time.

Other photos from the same Aug 1913 camp show the battalion parading in rifle green tunics and the rifle busby, so the battalion still had the uniforms in 1913.

I only posted it as the two carriages were similar. I was not suggesting it was the same weapon as in signalman's picture. Apologies if this has caused confusion.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by MBrockway

Are you talking about the picture I posted, rather than signalman's picture of the RML 7 pounder?

You'll notice my original filename for the picture is "KRRC - 1st Cadet Btn - Maxim gunners - postcard by Tuck [eBay].jpg" - i.e. I'm well aware it's a Maxim MG. Though Tuck's painting is of the 1st Cadet Battalion, KRRC rather than 3/KRRC. I have posted it again below with a less tight crop so Tuck's title in the bottom right corner is visible.

I also attach a photo of the KRRC 1st Cadet Battalion machine gun section from the cadets' annual camp in August 1913. In khaki SD this time.

Other photos from the same Aug 1913 camp show the battalion parading in rifle green tunics and the rifle busby, so the battalion still had the uniforms in 1913.

I only posted it as the two carriages were similar. I was not suggesting it was the same weapon as in signalman's picture. Apologies if this has caused confusion.

Yes, I was confused, I thought that you were suggesting that the KRRC maxim gun was an artillery piece.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Peter Brydon

Toby,

As a matter of interest this is a copy of a letter sent to me in 1976 by Laurie Archer which mentions bronze Rifle Brigade collars.

Peter

I do not know why the RB's four regular battalions chose to ignore the Army's Dress Regulations laid down for them in respect of collar badges, but I would speculate that it might be because prior to the 1902 iteration that introduced SD it was always stipulated that along with the 60th KRR they did not wear collar badges, which along with their black buttons made them quite different. It might also have been a token form of solidarity with the KRR, with whom they had long shared a depot, and also had the merit of setting them apart from the johnny-come-lately rifle regiments, the Cameronians (SR) and RIR, both of which wore collar badges, albeit in black. It might also be, in part, because the RB, unlike the KRR had chosen to wear what had previously been the pagri (puggaree) badge on SD caps, thus rendering the similar collar badge superfluous.

[Graham Stewart]

Originally Posted by MBrockway

I called it 'cannon' because signalman, the OP, had named his image files "tiny cannon"

I had it clocked as a Boer War vintage 200lbs Mark IV RML 7 pounder Mountain Gun.

Cf. these British RML 7 pounders captured by the Boers at Kraaipan


It doesn't look like a Maxim machine gun to me.

If you look carefully at the coloured illustration, you'll note it's belt fed and as Toby has quite kindly pointed out it's a Maxim on a carraige. I have a few photo's in my own collection of the Battalion M.G.Sections with them.

[MBrockway]

Originally Posted by Graham Stewart

If you look carefully at the coloured illustration, you'll note it's belt fed and as Toby has quite kindly pointed out it's a Maxim on a carraige. I have a few photo's in my own collection of the Battalion M.G.Sections with them.

At no point did I ever think the coloured image of the Tuck postcard of the 1st CB KRRC MG section was anything but a Maxim gun on a carriage!

You'll notice my filename for the image is "KRRC - 1st Cadet Btn - Maxim gunners - postcard by Tuck [eBay].jpg"

I only posted the Tuck image because the its composition seemed to have echoes of signalman's original picture of the 7 pounder mountain gun and that got me onto the possibility of signalman's group also being KRRC cadets.

Again apologies for the confusion. Including the Tuck postcard seems to have accidentally created a red herring.

[Keith Blakeman]

Originally Posted by Peter Brydon

Toby,

As a matter of interest this is a copy of a letter sent to me in 1976 by Laurie Archer which mentions bronze Rifle Brigade collars.

Peter

Attached the said collars.