FS cap badges with "tongues"

[John Mulcahy]

Originally Posted by Mike_2817

I don't think that 'Dress Regulations for Officers' really went into types of fixings in any great deal?

I agree they did not.

Having read the DRs for 1859, 1864, 1883, 1891, 1894, 1900, 1904 & 1911 I have never come across any direct references to badge fitments. There are occasional indirect references such as FSH not to be pierced post 1900 etc.

These details may lie elsewhere such as in the sealed pattern cards but the few that I have seen (second hand images) from 1904, 1906 & 1938 have the badges themselves but no apparent instruction on fitments required. DRs instructed that sealed patterns were deposited at the pattern room of the WO, and in addition, a book containing sealed patterns of officers’ lace, buttons and badges was provided to every infantry corps in the service (it is these cards that I am referring to)

There are occasional notes in the RACD list of changes that by inference apply to all headdress - but the register of changes is almost wholly concerned with uniforms and insignia of the rank & file provided under regulation at public expense.

John

[54Bty]

All very interesting, however still nothing posted about the so called folding peak cap.

Marc

[KLR]

Mike, Andy, John - sorry, I know well that DRs don't have information on badge fixings. I agree that officers were probably allo0wed a choice.
What I was thinking of is what manufacturers might all them !
Equally, I'd like to know what they called "tabs" - the little projections that held two piece ORs badges together, eg King's etc etc

RACD ledgers do however, have their own terms for most fittings etc on ORs badges.

Marc, I think the 'folding peak cap' must be the FSC as illustrated in post 9. If not, then I'm also puzzled !

[Mike_2817]

The description of a 'Folding Peak Cap' to me is of a Officers Coloured 'Forage' Type Cap where the peak slips into the body of the cap to protect it when not in use

I have never seen such a cap.

The closest example would be a Guardsman's Cap where most of the peak is out of view!

[KLR]

Curiouser and curiouser. I've certainly never heard of, or seen, such a thing. But then I don't know much about headgear so thanks for the information.

I think many of us would love to see an image of such a thing !!

[mooke07]

Excellent thread thanks Julian et al - interesting and informative, regards Dean.

[Mercian]

To me this is what the Forum is all about a good discussion about a topic where there is no book to open and find the answer. I have attached a photo of two Cheshire Regiment officers badges worn between 1900 and 1926, from the front pretty much identical, but one with lugs and the other with a lug and tongue, so why two types of fitting. Would the tongue just go into a hole cut in the material or was the a eyelet manufactured into the cap to stop wear?

[KLR]

I'm glad this is turning out to be constructive - even instructive !
Mercian's second badge has a 'mini' pointed 'blade' rather than the round ended 'tongue'. But this opens up the debate to badges that have two different fixings. I don't know about the Cheshire Regt example but I have another 1896 KLR S&G that appears to have been made with blades but for some reason the northern one has been replaced by a single loop. We all know that blades break off every now and again and perhaps the owner/ wearer wanted a more durable replacement ?
The badge is unmarked but is very definitely of Firmin style.

[wright241]

Originally Posted by Mercian

To me this is what the Forum is all about a good discussion about a topic where there is no book to open and find the answer. I have attached a photo of two Cheshire Regiment officers badges worn between 1900 and 1926, from the front pretty much identical, but one with lugs and the other with a lug and tongue, so why two types of fitting. Would the tongue just go into a hole cut in the material or was the a eyelet manufactured into the cap to stop wear?

I would not have expected it to just fit into a cut in the cloth, but to something more substantial e.g. the rear part (possibly) of the chinstrap or into the peak supporting material... I don't have a cap itself with one of these types of badges fitted - unfortunately. Someone else might...? I do have a pre-WWI peaked cap and there has a leather piece with is "just about" (its about 1/2inch above the chinstrap) in the right place to take that type of fitting. But that's it.
David

[JerryBB]

I think I remember there being a WWI cap of the SD or trench cap form with a soft peak that would fold up and could be stuffed in a small pack or similar. A mention of the same in post #5 here http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/fo...t#entry2161596

Not sure how the type of cap fitting under discussion would work, a shame none appear to be still insitu on a cap in someones collection here.

[Silver Tourist]

Good afternoon.

Well, with one or two possible exceptions, barring a rather confusing and incomplete diversion about names for types of head-dress, this thread went the square-root of nowhere really, did it?

So, let's stop wasting time on unsubstantiated opinions and look at a few facts: as it happens, whilst working on another project which will shortly benefit another Member of the Forum, I had cause to trawl through a number of Postal Auction Catalogues from a certain well known Auctioneer. Thirty nine in total actually, spanning some eleven years and containing some 25,000 mixed badges of all types. That is a sufficiently large sample in any statistical analysis.

Among those 25,350 items there are only 44 examples with loop and blade fittings (please, can we use the correct description?). Of those, seven are the famous hallmarked 11 Bn. Lonsdales badge which, in some of its five hallmarked variations, is fitted with a loop and blade fitting. Most of those seven are now on my famous desk. That leaves 37, of which one is a hallmarked silver example to the Indian Police (HM1909-10, J&Co.).

The only examples of loop and blade fittings to O/R's badges are two separate W/M examples of the Earl of Chesters IY (KK1311). That alone raises questions in my mind about those badges. However, as they're not hallmarked I have no particular interest in their originality, or otherwise. You can all argue that one out yourselves.

The remaining 34 examples are as follows, in no particular order:

1) Royal Irish Rgt. Unmarked silver. KC.
2) PWO West Yorkshire Rgt. Unmarked silver and gilt.
3) Border Rgt. Post 1905. Unmarked silver or silver plate.
4) DLI. HM. 1917-18. JRG&S. Possibly converted from loops. Ex. HK Col.
5) Royal Munster Fus. Silver & gilt. JR Gaunt. London. Ex. HK Col.
6) Leinster Rgt. Silver & gilt. Stamped 'S'. JR Gaunt. London. Ex. HK Col.
7) 21 (EofI) Lancers. QVC. (As KK796). Silver & gilt.
8) 7th. Queens Own Hussars. Silver & gilt. (As KK760).
9) 6th. Dragoon Guards. Silver & gilt. (As KK767).
10) Notts & Derby Rgt. Silver, gilt & enamel.KC. Stamped 'S'. JR Gaunt. London.
11) DLI. HM. 1901-02. Bent & Parker.
12) The Suffolk Rgt. Stamped 'Sterling Silver'. JR Gaunt. London.
13) The Essex Rgt. HM. 1917-18. JRG&S.
14) The Northumberland Fusiliers. Pre 1935. Silver & gilt.
15) East Surrey Rgt. KC. Silver & gilt. Ex. HK Col.
16) DLI. HM. 1902-3. J & Co. Ex. HK Col.
17) The Northamptonshire Rgt. Silver & gilt. Ex. HK Col.
18) West Yorkshire Rgt. Silver & gilt. J & Co.
19) The Devonshire Rgt. KC. Silver & gilt. Stamped 'S'.
20) The Manchester Rgt. Pre 1923. Stamped 'S'. JR Gaunt. London.
21) Queen's Royal West Surrey Rgt. Silver & gilt.
22) 16th. Queen's own Lancers. KC. Silver & gilt. JR Gaunt. London.
23) The Lincolnshire Rgt. Silver, gilt & enamel. Forage cap star. JR Gaunt. London. Ex. HK Col.
24) The Notts. & Derby Rgt. KC. Silver, gilt and enamel. Ex. HK Col.
25)The Welsh Rgt. Silver & gilt. JR Gaunt. London. Ex. HK Col.
26) The South Staffs. Rgt. Pre-1952. Silver & gilt. JR Gaunt. London. Ex. HK Col.
27) The North Staffs. Rgt. Silver & gilt. JR Gaunt. London. Ex. HK Col.
28) The Dorsetshire Rgt. Silver & gilt. (KK TBC). Ex. HK Col.
29) The Loyal North Lancs. KC. Silver & gilt.
30) The Manchester Rgt. Pre-1923. Silver & gilt. JR Gaunt. London. Ex. HK Col.
31) The KOSB. KC. Unmarked silver. NB. This example is the Adjutant's small version.
32) PWO West Yorkshire Rgt. Silver & gilt. JR Gaunt & Son. London. Ex. HK Col.
33) The Wiltshire Rgt. 'AEA' cypher. Gilt. Gaunt. London. Ex. HK Col.
34) The Royal Munster Fusiliers. Small grenade. Silver & gilt. Ex. HK Col.

So, there's the data. Notice that 16 are from the late Hugh King's Collection. You can make of the data what you will. I have yet to review my Collection of hallmarked badges to identify how many have loop and blade fittings. Certainly, I think there may be one or two VB items with blades. In the meantime you can now all have an argument over some real data, rather than just expressing opinions without anything to back them up.(A far too common occurrence in the world these days!)

Lights blue touch paper and sits down to watch. This should be fun!

Enjoy

S.T.

PS. And, of course, there is the old debate about whether one hallmarked silver Lonsdales badge was given to each man in the Bn, or to each officer. If they were given to each man, why add a loop and blade fitting to the largest batches?

PPS. Oh yes, I should have mentioned. The blade is inserted in a small slot cut horizontally in the cap. The loop passes through a hole in the cap and is secured in the conventional way Somewhere I have a hallmarked example in-situ on a DLI cap. It is just an alternative method of fixing, simple as that.

Update:

Having now reviewed my own Collection I can add the following items, each with a loop and blade fitting:

i) Royal Irish Regiment. KC. HM 1908-09 J & Co.
ii) South Wales Borderers. Large diameter. HM 1918-19. JRG&S. Ex. HK Col.
iii) DLI. HM 1906-07. JRG&S.
iv) PWO Yorkshire Rgt. HM 1903-04. Bent & Parker.
v) PWO Yorkshire Rgt. HM 1918-19. J & Co.
vi) PWO Yorkshire Rgt. 1902-03 J & Co.
vii) As (ii) above.
viii) Queens Rgt. (As KK590) HM 1915-16. Bent & Parker.


And, in another connection I have also been reviewing all of the 98 Public Auction Catalogues from a well known specialist house. From that we can conclude the following are found with loop and blade fittings:

a) DCLI. HM 1911-12 J & Co.
b) Suffolk Rgt. HM 1917-18. JRG&S. Ex. HK Col.
c) DCLI. HM 1918-19. JRG&S. Ex. HK Col.
d) DCLI. HM 1917-18. JRG&S. Ex. HK Col.
e) The Buffs. HM 1917-18. JRG&S. Ex. HK Col.
f) The Middlesex Rgt. HM 1900-01. Bent & Parker.
g) The Suffolk Rgt. Hm 1918-19. JRG&S.
h) The Royal Berkshire Rgt. Hm 1918-19. JRG&S.

Not sure what one can conclude from all that: perhaps, that most loop and blade items were produced between 1900 and 1919? That most were produced by Gaunts? And, that most of those were swept up by Hugh King?

[GriffMJ]

Derbyshire Imperial Yeomanry
un-marked ...... its silver or plated ...... its sparkles in the silver dip anyway. (the electric light does not do it justice)

[2747andy]

Griff,
I think someone has possibly been at it! The blade looks rather longer than those found on other examples and the lug (term used by not so anal collectors) looks a rather modern!

The front of the badge also looks a tad incorrect, and more like the run of the mill reproductions!


Just my opinion and no attempt to belittle as other posters appear to be doing!

Andy

[GriffMJ]

Andy

I am not worried about its provenance....

Here it is alongside a WW2 Other Ranks.

[wright241]

Just to help to bottom this one out.
Here are 3 shots of 1 of the 3 I have with this type of fitting.
7QOH KC officers cast SG with x1 top lug/loop & short bottom
"fastener" - tab/blah, blah blah (whatever its called).
The other 2 are virtually identical in shape and size and the top "lug"
is aligned vertically on all of them.
I don't have any other unmarked or HMS versions - apart from the 17th Lancer one.
David