Annoyed, amused or sad ???

[LONGSHANKS]

Originally Posted by Peter Brydon

Simon,

I think everyone's opinion is affected by their personal experiences in their dealing with others, whether they be Dealers or other members of the Forum ,so that there may be many satisfied customers of the dealer who's dealing started this thread.

At the end of the day naming and shaming is all very well but it cannot negate the opinions of all the people who's dealings with an individual have been happy ones. It is up to individuals to come to their own conclusions in their dealing with others.

What prompted me to start the thread was the fact that the item I sold was described by me as a reproduction and I would not have had a problem if the purchaser had at least sold it on as such ( i.e a reproduction ) at whatever price he thought it might achieve.

Regards

Peter

I disagree on this one Peter. A star system works on an average score. So if you have one disgruntled in 50, then no issues, but most probably in the case of this individual in question 49 out of 50 then a low score. It works for Amazon and Ebay with seller ratings. If someone has a 98 or 99%, it doesn't put me off buying from them. But a 75%, then well, I have to do some checking. But it can tip you off, to be aware. As I said, no comments, just star ratings

Pretty much what has been suggested so far.

Cheers
Simon.

[ebro]

I feel I am seeing a Lynch Mob mentality here. There is a points system on ebay already but reading the feedback for the seller will tell you more.
In the case that Peter raised I believe the seller has been mentioned several times on this forum over the last couple of years.
It boils down to "let the buyer beware".
Eddie

[wright241]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

I don't get it when people do not like naming and shaming. In this bloody country we seem quite happy to get ripped off. If someone is trying to rip someone off then it's up to people who know better and have the balls to do something about it.
Andy

Andy,
Well put and it is very odd that that it seems to be very "politically incorrect" to criticise people who do it (here in the UK), but to let them continue doing it without any consequences to them at all. Seems to be quite normal... How about them apologising(?) for once.... Wow, that's a bit novel now, isn't it??
I guess there are as many "dodgy builders" as there are "dodgy badge sellers".
Have a nice day, David

[rhodesianmilitaria]

Some of the biggest con artists I ever saw on ebay had anywhere from 2-4 accounts. Others had one account and when the heat or negatives got too much they just left it and opened another one and continued doing that.
Most people I contacted on ebay over the years, and it would have been hundreds, had some pathetic excuse as to why they were selling a fake or copy that they had listed as period genuine.
"It came from a veteran", "I bought it in the 70's", "I bought them from Werner Reuteler" (Andrew Butler's classic line), blah, blah, blah.
One of the best was when a seller asked me my opinion on an item and when I told him it was a copy and explained why he then proceeded to tell me that I didn't know what I was talking about.

Some genuinely concerned people delisted the item or corrected the listing but they were a very small minority.

Some know that I used to have a 50 page website with some photos of Rhodesian militaria and descriptions. A significant part of that site dealt with fakes and who sold them. One page was dedicated to dealers from anywhere in the world to sellers on ebay who sold fakes. I named their usernames and their real names if I knew them.
I could write a book on them, their excuses, their lies and some of them their threats.

The bottom line is, while I have no problem naming cheating bastards, it probably won't make much difference. The reality is that in the collecting world there are a lot of con men and selfish bastards whose priorities are making a profit or expanding their own collection before anything else.

[AndyC_65]

First of all - can a mod please move this to the Fairs, Sales, Sellers & Auctions forum - then it will be afforded a certain amount of privacy from the outside world for the benefit of the forum.

Excuse me while I pull my soap box over.

I've had a (very) long running dislike of a certain eBay sellers method of selling, in particular, his refusal to identify badges that are fake (99.99% of those he sells). His current feedback is 99.8% on 26584 transactions. Fantastic eh?

Of the 4489 transactions in the last month, 5 are neutral, 7 are negative. Every one of those negative are about him (actually it's them) selling fake badges, and yet they continue to flourish.

There was (yet another) thread about this seller and their dishonest dealing a few months ago, and one of the more respected member s of the forum suggested people put up or shut up. So I put up.

I bought a badge from him purporting to be silver, and returned it as fake immediately. I was refunded in total and left negative feedback (1 of the 7).

I also reported them to trading standards, and provided all my findings & contacts etc to the forum and suggested that unless the exercise was done in force, then it would be futile.

One other person did as I suggested. One. ONE. Out of a forum of 7514 members. Even if we assume that 1% of the membership is active & in the UK - that would be 75 people.

That will tell you why the dealer in the original post did what he did. The vast majority of us don't care, and because we don't care, the future of the hobby is in shambles.

I would expect that at 49, I'm one of the younger members of the forum. What happens when this fantastic knowledge base & guardianship of this hobby passes elsewhere?

How is my least favourite eBay seller making 4489 transactions in a single year? Who is he selling to? I would hope the forum members would know differently - so who is being conned out of their hard earned cash, worst still, who is perpetuating fake badges into the hobby?

I've advocated for this before, and I'll do so again.

As the guardians of the hobby we should stand up to these people.

One easy way to do this is to offer a B&CMBF "seal of approval.

A dealer, seller, or even individual, would sign up to these principles:-

1. They promise to describe a badge as accurately as possible & to the best of their knowledge.
2. They promise not to knowingly sell fake badges, medals or militaria.
3. They promise to accept returns unconditionally.

Meet those needs, then they get to show our banner on their selling page.

It will soon become apparent to the great badge buying public who does & doesn't meet that criteria, and economics will speak for themselves.

This wouldn't be a difficult thing to administer, and I'm willing to put myself forward to doing so, or equally, would support anyone else who feels a strong desire to do this.

We have to do something, other than moan.

If you read this far - thank you & well done!

cheers,

Andy C

[Phil2M]

Andy, I would happily report the individual to TS, I was one of the few who reported to ebay, after which the HMS items were removed from sale. However, at the moment, I have not got the money to buy his crap, even to get the later refund. For me it will have to go on a back burner.

I saw the individual on tv the other day, he had a very nice suit on which looked expensive.

Phil

[badger123]

Andy,

I sympathise with your view and agree in general with your comments and I commend your actions in dealing with your favourite (not) dealer.

I'm not normally one for saying 'its not worth it' but in the case of bad or dishonest badge sellers, sadly I think we are pissing into the wind in terms of trying to stop them.

Its like sales of any collectables be they paintings, antiques, coins, militaria or badges, where there is a profit to be made or personal gain to be had, people will rip punters off.

I would like to say its just dealers but it has to be said that there are a few less than honest collectors out there who lie or are dishonest if it helps their own collection.

I think its nigh on impossible to close the dishonest dealers down. An example being the banned forum member (a certain cartoon character) who has ripped off numerous forum members and collectors over many, many years and still peddles his made up stories about provenance and yet still sells fake badges. The number of people on this forum who knew what he was like but yet stayed quite was astounding. A few of us did stand up to him and question his tall stories and highlighted his fakes but we never got any answers. He was banned but made threats about legal action and I see that he is still allowed to be a guest and his banned status seems to have been removed.

But here's the crazy thing, people, including members of this forum, still buy from this bloke despite knowing what a crook he is.

I personally wouldn't buy anything from this dealer, regardless of how rare or scarce a badge is and believe me, I have passed on badges he has that I would have liked but out of principle, I WILL NOT line the pockets of this crook.

So Andy, its doesn't surprise me that your crusade wasn't that well supported because when it comes to principles, collectors will buy from dishonest dealers if it is a badge they want. In short, they think about the badge they want and not about the scruples of the person selling the badge.

Just my own rant!

Ivan

[rhodesianmilitaria]

Originally Posted by badger123

So Andy, its doesn't surprise me that your crusade wasn't that well supported because when it comes to principles, collectors will buy from dishonest dealers if it is a badge they want. In short, they think about the badge they want and not about the scruples of the person selling the badge.

Just my own rant!

Ivan

Hit the nail on the head!

[AndyC_65]

Originally Posted by badger123

Andy,
I think its nigh on impossible to close the dishonest dealers down. An example being the banned forum member (a certain cartoon character) who has ripped off numerous forum members and collectors over many, many years and still peddles his made up stories about provenance and yet still sells fake badges. The number of people on this forum who knew what he was like but yet stayed quite was astounding. A few of us did stand up to him and question his tall stories and highlighted his fakes but we never got any answers. He was banned but made threats about legal action and I see that he is still allowed to be a guest and his banned status seems to have been removed.

But here's the crazy thing, people, including members of this forum, still buy from this bloke despite knowing what a crook he is.

In my defence, I joined the forum after the furore with said gentlemen. When trying to find out who this mysterious cartoon character was, received conflicting reports on him, including people using terms such as witch hunt etc., so I decided innocent until proven guilty in my own eyes.

He's now very much guilty as charged by others, and I too would never buy from him again. I'm sure we've all made mistakes.

If we'd had (or in future - do have) some kind of seal of approval, am sure that would be helpful in any member understanding. More especially, the non forum members buying from eBay.

As you've said, I've realised that I'm pissing in the wind, and I don't really know why I bothered wasting the electrons that were inconvenienced in my previous post.

cheers,

Andy

[badger123]

I don't think you've wasted anything Andy (including electrons)! as you have obviously raised the profile of someone who is clearly a crook and you should be commended for that.

What I'm saying is that we are pissing into the wind by trying to stop them altogether as there will always be someone willing to buy from them.

I think by far the best way is education and this forum is currently the best and most informed way of getting the message across about fakes and dishonest dealers and sellers.

I'm glad you feel the same about the cartoon character. The sad thing is he does occasionally have some good badges!

However, I do think there is some merit in what you say about a seal of approval type of thing but God knows how it could be agreed as we can't even agree on who is a honest dealer or not!

I should also say I'm grateful for you offering to lead on a standard and I would support any effort to name and shame. I just hope others would support it too.

Ivan

Gentleman I have read what has gone so far and all I see is people thanking people for there posts in agreement.

There has been no naming of who these sellers are E-Bay or dealers.
Its down to us to have the balls to stop these thief's taking are hard earned cash but as to yet I don't see any balls at all, so I take it were all going to lie down and let them get away with it.

As a new collector I am blind to these sellers, I know there are many dealers who are members of this forum and some people may find this to be some kind of witch hunt but in all if these people are not named we might as well just throw away are hard earned cash in the gutter.

So come on lets see who has the ball's some people are going to get upset being shamed but hey if they were honest they would not have anything to worry about.

All is needed is the name of the seller (no obscenities please) its all about being professional about this serious matter then we will have the last laugh.

So come on ( HE WHO DARES WINS ) Put a STOP to the RIP OFF.

I have started a new thread for your response.

[LONGSHANKS]

If the forum has the ability to do a "thanked" feature on the threads, can't see why we can't have seller sites and ebay seller's with a thumbs up rating in some form.

As long as nothing detrimental is said or stated that could come back to bite the forum, it's a simple members rating system. Let viewer's make of it what they will.

Simon.

[ebro]

Simon,
Last week we had a thread which seemed to single out a seller who over priced a badge.
The seller turned out to be you and your over priced badge turned out to be a less common variety and worth more than you were asking.
It is easy to make a mistake and blame a seller in the wrong.
I do know there are sellers who deserve 'named & shamed', but as we have named most of them in the past and folk still buy from them is there any point in repeating it?
Eddie

[LONGSHANKS]

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[LONGSHANKS]

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