Leicestershire Rgt.

[Alan O]

Bad, bad, bad.

Alan

[wardog]

Hello Alan. Economy are not my thing, would your opinion be the same for the badge in post 18? Cheers, Paul.

[Alan O]

The point made about Cox is a good one but the book does have several fakes and copies in it so I would be wary of it.

The badge in post 18 I would regard as suspect. It is an exact match to a well known faker's products as is the one shown on ebay. I used to have one idetical to it with JR Gaunt.London on it.

The regular economy one shown earlier I would say is genuine. The solid tail is a god sign. However I have yet to see an economy TF badges that I like. Gaylor's list is so flawed as to be worthless as an authoritative source. Bearing in mind that economy abdges came into being in 1916 and TF badges ceased to be made in 1917 does make this a very short lived badge. Personally I do not believe a TA leicestershires economy was produced.

Alan

['Ticker' Riley]

Many thanks for explaining about the weaknesses in Cox’s book Alan. To be honest in one way it makes me feel better than even he made mistakes, but on the other it also makes finding the right badges even more frustrating! I think you and Paul are right and the badge I bought does look unlikely to be genuine, especially as it has such good definition (probably too good) and is rather yellow in colour - which is what Paul warns against. Having said that at least it only cost me £3.42, instead of what the other extremely shiny examples which are more obvious repros are going for; and thankfully it also doesn’t have the Gaunt mark on it either! It was interesting that you believe this kind of Territorials’ all-brass version may not have actually been produced - it just so happened that I was sent some photographs today by a gentleman who has an excellent collection of Leicestershire badges, and amongst which was this (which I trust he won’t mind me sharing with you here):

I wonder what you think of this - I take it this one is authentic?

Regards

Martin

[KLR]

Actually the records show that a 4th/5th Bn Leics was produced (at least there was a WO order for 6k of them). I assume it was different (ie no Hindoostan scroll) from the regular Bn economy badge as they are listed separately.
TF econs are a bit more complicated and we are still working on them. Yes, I'm afraid Gaylor's list is, as Alan says, worthless. Many of these "collectors" books were written before official records became available.

[Alan O]

Julian,

Thank you for correcting me. 6000 badges are not very many after 90+ years. To put TF economies in perspective I have only seen 2 economy cambridgeshire badge that I would consider genuine. TF Suffolks and 23rd Londons are supposed to exist as well.

Alan

['Ticker' Riley]

Many thanks for your posting Julian - that’s really interesting to hear that there are records available showing an order for 6,000 economy badges for the 4th/5th Territorial Battalions of the Leicestershire Regiment. Do you have any more information like this with regard to the requisition of Leicestershire badges in general at all, and would these orders actually specify a manufacturer?

As to your comments Alan about once having a Leicesters economy badge with the J.R.GAUNT.LONDON mark on it – I have now seen one of these on sale on the internet (albeit a bi-metal one), and whilst the badge above in post 26 looks to me to be a genuinely old badge I have to say it would seem to be the exact same design as these modern Gaunt restrikes!

Regards

Martin

[Alan O]

As far as re-use of dies producing identical copies, I am open to suggestions that 'original' dies were in use in the early 1970s to fake badges. There was a thread a while ago about one restriker called Morris whose fakes were made from original dies. The give away was the slider shapes.

However dies have a finite life so if badges are being run off today then they are more likley to be made from new dies. New dies are never identical to the original ones as it is so hard to match every detail. You also get features such as the 'owl-eyed' tiger, that make me suspicious of every one with this dreadful look.

Consequently if a badge is being faked today and I see an identical one, then I am suspicious. There have been several Leics badges on ebay that look 'old' but have the same characteristics as 'new' copies.

Alan

['Ticker' Riley]

I have been meaning to post up this badge for a week or so now, after Wardog kindly put me on to it and much to my surprised I actually managed to get it!:

I’m pretty confident it is a genuine First World War Leicestershire badge, and it does look to be a pretty close match for the one Jeanpit attached to his post on this thread back in January (post #2). I trust he won’t mind me re-posting those pictures here, so as to give a direct comparison with the one I’ve bought:

As Paul (Wardog) pointed out when he told me about the badge, it isn’t quite a dead ringer for Jeanpit’s one, but it is extremely similar. Although the angle of Jeanpit’s pictures don’t show it that well, I believe mine to be the same style/design of Tiger, and I think the braze holes are more or less the same. But I’ll admit that the slider is a slightly different shape. I’m still happy that mine is also from the Great War, as Jeanpit’s would seem to be - given that his grandfather apparently collected this and his other badges from the soldiers at the time. Having said all of that, as always I’d appreciate any comments or views from Forum members.

Regards

Martin

[jeanpit-frenchy]

for me (but i wasn't a expert) it is a nice "genuine" WW1 badge.

the slider of my badge Was twisted. An error of my part during the beginning of my collection to place my badges on a wooden board.

i'm very happy for you

perhaps did you want now found tiltles, collars and button for completed the board.

['Ticker' Riley]

Hi Jeanpit

Many thanks for your posting, I’m glad to hear that at least you think the badge I bought stands a good chance of being from the Great War.

I don’t think I’ll venture into buying shoulder titles and collar badges just yet, as I think there’s more than enough to keep me going with cap badges! My dearest beloved has also expressed concern on the financial side of things with regard to my new ‘hobby’, and to be honest the above badge cost me somewhat more that I was hoping to pay for it. Having said that at least it wasn’t as expensive as another genuine early Leicestershire badge I was watching, which went for almost £46.00 the other day!

Anyway, talking of authentic badges, here’s another photograph to compare with yours and mine that was kindly forwarded to me the other week:

This one is of a badge that was apparently dug up in recent years on the Loos Battlefield. If I’m not mistaken this is again the exact same pattern, and so I would hope helps to add a little more weight to mine also being an authentic badge from the period? I’d still be very interested in any opinions Forum members have on this, and indeed on any of the above badges.

Regards

Martin

[wardog]

Hello Martin. The new badge looks fine. I have not commented on your Lambourn DCLI badge due to lack of knowledge on the manufacturer, but again it looks fine to me. Would want to see the reverse to venture an opinion on the dug badge. Think I noticed an Edwardian lugged tiger on eBay a couple of weeks back. Northamptonshire next? Also as a general rule collar badges where not worn by infantry in WWI and just General Service buttons, so don't worry about them. Cheers, Paul. Ah, found it. Probably the one you were watching looking at the price. 150326909787

['Ticker' Riley]

Hi Paul

Glad to hear you too think my latest acquisition seems to be authentic, and that you feel likewise about the Lambourne D.C.L.I. one as well. I’m afraid I don’t have a picture of the back of the Loos badge, and the gentleman who sent the photo to me could not explain the red discolouration on the badge – as neither can I!!. It was the lugged Leicestershire badge that sold for just under £46.00, it was listed as First World War but as it was in South Africa I think it’s more likely to have been Boer War, don’t you? Yes, Northamptons’ badges are on my list - I am restricting myself to the regiments that family served in during the Great War and after, and it was my wife’s grandfather who was a regular in the Northamptonshire Regiment. Anyway, many thanks for confirming what I was thinking about the collar badges and buttons, I think I need to look into things a bit more before I start on the shoulder titles. By the way, can you point me in the direction of any good threads on the Forum about slider design at all?

Regards

Martin

[wardog]

Luke Halls has given thoughts on sliders in various posts, so you could search with his name, or just search for slider, unable to remember if there have been any good threads. As you now know its not an exact science and the manufactures did not leave clues with us in mind! In general for WWI, a crimp line is a good point, the longer the better, thiner the better and perhaps a slight tapper. Thats how it looks to me. Regards the lugged badge, It could have made it to Africa by 1902, or been collected say on the Somme, or bought from the UK by a collector or dealer more recently. Who knows? Part of the bug I think, holding a badge and wondering just what events it has been through.

[signalman]

leic-front.jpgthis is a non regular Leicestershire rgt slider removed.this is 100 per cent pukka.that i have had for many years.for reference.