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  #1  
Old 13-05-21, 01:54 AM
nbroadarrowz nbroadarrowz is offline
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Default New Zealand Tunnellers badges

Hi to all,
Does anyone have any evidenced based research that shows that the large size NZE cap badge and curved New Zealand shoulder title with the E on top are in fact specific to the New Zealand Tunnellers?

These badges have been long associated by collectors are NZ tunnellers badges but is there any proof?

Thanks
Barry
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  #2  
Old 13-05-21, 05:53 AM
NZEF NZEF is offline
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Default NZ Tunnelling Coy

Good question Barry, you may have seen this photo already, from M. Brabazon collection, large size Tunnellers badge can be seen on floppy trench cap.
Left is LT Ronayne (later Capt) OC NZE Tunnelling Coy. Centre NZMC Lt ( doctor) attached, right is LT King, NZ Tunnelling Coy.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20210513_173546.jpg (63.5 KB, 50 views)

Last edited by NZEF; 13-05-21 at 06:00 AM. Reason: Attachment
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  #3  
Old 13-05-21, 06:30 AM
Jackhr Jackhr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nbroadarrowz View Post
Hi to all,
Does anyone have any evidenced based research that shows that the large size NZE cap badge and curved New Zealand shoulder title with the E on top are in fact specific to the New Zealand Tunnellers?

These badges have been long associated by collectors are NZ tunnellers badges but is there any proof?

Thanks
Barry
In October, 1915, he enlisted in the New Zealand Tunnelling Corps, as a sapper / engineer, having been a miner in England.

Most of the tunnellers were quarrymen, gold miners from Waihi and Karangahake, or labourers from the Railways and Public Works departments. Others were coal miners from the West Coast of the South Island, but these workers were generally discouraged from enlisting due to the essential nature of their industry. After initial training in Avondale camp, the NZ Tunnelling Company embarked at Auckland on 18 December 1915 on the New Zealand Shipping Company refrigerated cargo vessel SS Ruapehu. The ship sailed across the Pacific via Cape Horn. After a voyage of two months, with a brief stopover in Dakar, they arrived in Plymouth on 18 February 1916. John Wright had been promoted to Lance Corporal in November 1915.

2nd photo is labelled NZ Tunnelers
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File Type: jpg Wright-Private-J-W_opt.jpg (93.9 KB, 33 views)
File Type: jpg NZ Tunneliers.jpg (74.6 KB, 25 views)

Last edited by Jackhr; 13-05-21 at 06:37 AM.
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  #4  
Old 13-05-21, 07:16 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nbroadarrowz View Post
Hi to all,
Does anyone have any evidenced based research that shows that the large size NZE cap badge and curved New Zealand shoulder title with the E on top are in fact specific to the New Zealand Tunnellers?

These badges have been long associated by collectors are NZ tunnellers badges but is there any proof?

Thanks
Barry
Yes there is proof that the tunnellers wore both the NZE and E over New Zealand, and the larger size NZE badge.
When I can find the pictures I will post them.
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  #5  
Old 13-05-21, 07:33 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Captain Harold Watkinson, if you use his buttons as a measuring gauge, he is definitely wearing the large size cap badge.

https://www.aucklandmuseum.com/war-m...otaph%2Fsearch

tunnlers Captain H Watkinson. New Zealand Tunnelling Company.jpg
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  #6  
Old 13-05-21, 07:43 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Two NZ Tunnelling officers cropped from the same photo, one wearing an NZE and the other is wearing E/NZ.
Yes I know the E/NZ is very distorted, but it is what it is.
Besides I do have another picture that is much clearer, just cant find it at the moment.

tunnlers New Zealand Tunnellers and their feline mascot in Dainville, France.JPG
tunnlers New Zealand Tunnellers and their feline mascot in Dainville, France.jpg
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  #7  
Old 13-05-21, 08:08 AM
NZEF NZEF is offline
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Another photograph of R H P Ronayne, (4/1226) E over New Zealand Titles.
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File Type: jpg 386180.jpg (60.1 KB, 31 views)
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  #8  
Old 13-05-21, 09:54 AM
nbroadarrowz nbroadarrowz is offline
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Thanks for all the images.
1/ Did they get the specific (what is known as) tunnellers badges because they were tunnellers? or were they issued to engineers, some of whom happened to be tunnellers.
2/ We know that some named photos can be traced to tunnellers and they are wearing the tunnellers badges.
3/ With unnamed photos, are we assuming that just because they are wearing the larger hat badge that they are tunnellers?
4/ Have we seen any engineers wearing the larger badge?

What I am really after are stores lists, army orders, unit diary entries, badge maker accounts etc.
Something to say that the badges are specific to tunnellers.

Barry
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  #9  
Old 13-05-21, 11:15 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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New Zealand Tunnelling Company Officer and men on parade dated 2 July 1918

New Zealand Tunnelling Company 2 July 1918.jpg
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  #10  
Old 13-05-21, 11:35 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nbroadarrowz View Post
Thanks for all the images.
1/ Did they get the specific (what is known as) tunnellers badges because they were tunnellers? or were they issued to engineers, some of whom happened to be tunnellers.
2/ We know that some named photos can be traced to tunnellers and they are wearing the tunnellers badges.
3/ With unnamed photos, are we assuming that just because they are wearing the larger hat badge that they are tunnellers?
4/ Have we seen any engineers wearing the larger badge?

What I am really after are stores lists, army orders, unit diary entries, badge maker accounts etc.
Something to say that the badges are specific to tunnellers.

Barry
Looking at photographs taken in New Zealand, both Engineer's and Tunnellers' were issued the small size hat badge and NZE shoulder titles.
All photos that I have seen showing the large NZE badge and E over NZ have all been attributed to Tunnellers, most with good provenance.
Photos of NZE in the Middle East show small NZE hat badges.

Why do you ponder such things Barry?
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  #11  
Old 13-05-21, 06:34 PM
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William Harry Crowe,37593. 4th Tunneling reinforcements , with large Tunnelers cap badge and E over New Zealand title . From my private collection.
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File Type: jpg William Crowe.jpg (45.0 KB, 24 views)

Last edited by pukman; 13-05-21 at 06:49 PM.
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  #12  
Old 13-05-21, 08:53 PM
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Michael ''Mick'' Keane ,4/1660 . Tunneling company ,wearing large NZE badge and curved NZE shoulder titles. From my personal collection
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File Type: jpg Micheal Keane 4-1660 NZ Tunneller and wife Amelia.jpg (30.0 KB, 16 views)
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  #13  
Old 13-05-21, 09:54 PM
Jackhr Jackhr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atillathenunns View Post
Looking at photographs taken in New Zealand, both Engineer's and Tunnellers' were issued the small size hat badge and NZE shoulder titles.
All photos that I have seen showing the large NZE badge and E over NZ have all been attributed to Tunnellers, most with good provenance.
Photos of NZE in the Middle East show small NZE hat badges.

Why do you ponder such things Barry?
Gentlemen how hard is it to get a Large hat badge and the shoulder title E over NZ ?? And are they expensive ??

Rob
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  #14  
Old 13-05-21, 10:11 PM
woronora woronora is offline
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Hi Rob.

OM sent.

Hi Iain
Crowe's photo looks familiar. Great to see it in good hands.

John
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  #15  
Old 14-05-21, 10:18 PM
nbroadarrowz nbroadarrowz is offline
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There is photographic evidence to show that known tunnellers wore the large badge and E of New Zealand, but what I ask is were they the only ones?
Did NZ Engineers also wear these badges.

NZ authorities did order another batch of NZE cap badges but why did they enlarge the design? Was this a mistake in dimensions, seems a lot of effort to have to make a new die etc. If they were going to make a new die why didn't they make a new badge design.

So far there is still no evidenced based research to support the theory of a large size NZE cap badge being made specifically for tunnellers.
There is also no evidence to say that the shoulder title with the E was only worn by tunnellers.

The large size NZE badge is scarce and if the large size NZE badge was specifically made for the tunnellers why are there not more about? How many badges would have needed to be made for the tunnellers? the percentages don't add up in my book.
If the tunnellers were granted a specific large NZE badge as their own, then this would have been a unit distinction and cherished by the tunnellers. Where are the orders or information to support this?

food for thought.
Barry

Last edited by nbroadarrowz; 15-05-21 at 04:10 AM. Reason: more if's
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