British Section NZEF

[pukman]

Sapper Eric Henry Astley 4/4a British Section /New Zealand Field Engineers ,D.O.W 28th June 1915 ,Gallipoli
British section soldiers were issued both S/D and felt hats .Here is a comparison of one individuals badge wearing, which seems to be the standard in the British Section(although collar size badge is sometimes worn on front or side of the felt hat)
British section cap and collars (all collar size) on service dress cap and tunic , No badge on felt hat ,collar badges on tunic.

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by woronora

Hi Brent

It is interesting that Sgt. Gibbs collection of badges includes the Watts round collars for the Maori contingent. In the discussion of these Watts badges, I thought that the photographic evidence suggested that they were reinforcement badge worn by the 30th and 31st Reinforcements. Possibly Gibbs obtained these badges during the later part of the war or even post war. If so, this could pose a problem for the provenance of the alleged British section badge.

Regards

John

John, the so called “provenance of the alleged British section badge” is the undeniable fact that all known photographs, including individual photos and group photos of the “New Zealand British Section,” show a collar sized badge being worn on the slouch hat or peaked cap.

The photo below of Trooper James Dilworth Bradley Mossman, Service No. 13/187B, is important as he was killed in action on Gallipoli on the 19th May 1915, which was just less than five months after the NZ British section arrived in Egypt.
Trooper James Mossman was one of four brothers that served inWW1, initially he enlisted in the King Edward's Horse, from which he then transferred to the British section.
The NZ Onward badges worn by Mossman can only be badges of the NZ British Section.



In regards to the Sgt. Gibbs collection of badges, and the Watts round collars for the Maori contingent, the photographs supplied by me in posts # 10 & 12 are undeniable proof that the round collars were only worn as reinforcement badges.
If you think about it, the lack of Pioneer badges (issued in Europe), the round collar badges suggest the photo of Sgt. Gibbs collection was probably taken some time around or just after the 30th reinforcements.

John, if you look at the auction contained in post # 72, Phillip states - “There were ONLY 7 officers and 233 enlisted ranks who sailed off to Egypt 12th December 1914,” which is suggestive that only around 240 British Section cap badges were manufactured, which to me, is implying that these badges are rare.
The kicker is they are not rare, in fact they turn up regularly and seldom sell for more than $75, in fact I have 3 of these so called “BRITISH Section 1st NZEF Onward OAK LEAF” cap badges in my own collection.
Interestingly John it was you who outbid me on the early Maori Contingent badge that was on trade me recently, of which only 750 are believed to have been made. Certainly it cost you a lot more than the $90 buy now that Phillip is offering for a badge that only around 240 were made.

A bit of food for thought is the following badges from my collection, the laurel wreath on the 3rd Auckland badge is obvious, as are the fern leaves of the 9th Wellington badge on the right.
But what about the 9th Wellington badge on the left, are they OAK LEAFS?



The answer is simply ‘no,’ they are just fern leaves that look similar to oak leaves to some people, who most likely still believe in Santa Claus.
Let’s face it, Corbett’s British Section Onward badge interpretation is flawed, and it is well overdue that we make efforts to correct this grave error by spreading the truth about our once proud national badge.

Brent

[woronora]

Hi Brent

In my message regarding the Gibbs collection, I was not disputing the photographic evidence that you and Iain have produced showing that the British Section did not wear the so called 'oak leaf' version of the Onward badge. Rather, they wore the collar 'fern leaf' Onward style, both as collars and cap badges. I have long agreed with Iain and your conclusion that the 'oak leaf' version was not worn by the members of the British Section. Infact, in Post 67 I suggested that the origin of these 'oak leaves' may have been modeled on the leaves of the Maidenhair fern.

My comment was in no way intended to detract from the conclusions that you and Iain have arrived at.

What I was alluding to was the provenance of the British Section badge in the Gibbs collection, since the collection also contains the Watts round collars, which he attributed as the badges worn by the Maori Contingent at Gallipoli. Perhaps, it was Gibb's inclusion of these Watts collars that led to the acceptance by Corbett and Oldham in their books that these were the original type of badge worn by A Company of the Contingent. Gibbs inclusion of the small fern leaf collar certainly supports your conclusion, however the proof in the pudding lies with the photographic evidence that you and Iain have produced.

When I re frame my NZ badges, I will be removing the 'oak leaves' style badge from my collection as I regard them as no longer being indicative of the style worn by the British Section.

Regards

John

[pukman]

Hello John,

Thanks for your comments .All credit to Brent as he come up with the suggestion ,I just happened to be able to access a large number of portrait photo's which a very small percentage were British section soldiers ,which collaborated with his evidence .

I hope everyone can get in behind the ''Onward'' project initiated by Phil Beattie and Matt Pomeroy .The first volume contains over 4000 portraits of NZEF soldiers .It is a mine for military genealogists and badge researchers/collectors as well .If you have named portraits and can get them scanned there is another 3 volumes planned .P/M me for contact details .

Regards Iain

[woronora]

Hi Iain

The 'Onward' project is a wonderful project. I have a copy of the first volume and it is indeed an impressive undertaking. Both Phil and Matt are to be congratulated on their vision and massive efforts to record the photos of as many WW1 NZ service personnel as they can.

I have already sent Phil copies of some of the my photos of identified WW1 NZ soldiers. I must, however, send the remaining images - not many but I guess each helps.

Regards

John

[pukman]

Hi John,

volume 2 of the ''Onward ' project is well advanced ,and should be out shortly.Looking forward to it myself. There is a website dedicated to this worthy project so if you have identified WW1 photo's or portraits, no contribution is to small .Google ,Fairdinkumbooks or Onward Project

Cheers Iain

[akoopak37]

Hello,
Can anyone tell me it this was worn at Gallipoli.
Thank You.

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by akoopak37

Hello,
Can anyone tell me it this was worn at Gallipoli.
Thank You.

The 1st NZ Expeditionary Force Badge was a reinforcement badge that was generally only worn in New Zealand or on the troopships from the 33rd reinforcements onward. As such it was not worn at Gallipoli.

[Lyndsay]

I don't have information regarding badges but wondered if you knowledgable folk could assist me. I have been asked by a friend to see if I could find any information regarding a carved moari head. It's wooden, brown and has tattoos carved on its face. It was attached to a bell and the inscription on it reads, off the bell HMNZS 1919. It was found underneath an old house several years ago.
If anyone can enlighten me or redirect me it would be very much appreciated.

[atillathenunns]

If you can provide any pictures they would be of great help evaluating the bell.
Without them I can only speculate that it is a commemoration piece that may have been made circa WW2 onwards.

[Tinto]

Hi Brent, and Lyndsay,
I'm wondering if this Maori head carving is connected with the head carving depicted in Post 45 of this thread.
On the HMS New Zealand's gun tompion is such a carving.
Cheers, Tinto

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by Tinto

Hi Brent, and Lyndsay,
I'm wondering if this Maori head carving is connected with the head carving depicted in Post 45 of this thread.
On the HMS New Zealand's gun tompion is such a carving.
Cheers, Tinto

Tinto, without pictures to determine workmanship and age we can only guess, but it is very possible that the HMNZS stands for HMNZ “Squadron” which suggests to me it is connected to the sport of Yachting.
(The New Zealand Division of the Royal Navy was formed 20th June 1921. The title “HMNZS” was granted to the New Zealand Division on the 1st October 1941)

[pukman]

Has anyone recorded the puggaree collars for the British Section NZEF ? .I don't recall seeing it in any reference book. Four colour bands instead of the usual three

This postcard entitled ''Contingent of New Zealand Troops''
''How have so gallantly volunteered for service in the Great European war in defence of the Empire'', shows the British section parading in front of a crowd in England

[PaddyWW]

Kia ora atillathenunns,
Great post. I'm very interested in your statement indicating that Rere Nikitini gave the particular piupiu that Capt Halsey wore; have you any special evidence that it was this one rather than the one given by Taare Parata MP a few days earlier in Wellington? Thanks

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by pukman

Has anyone recorded the puggaree collars for the British Section NZEF ? .I don't recall seeing it in any reference book. Four colour bands instead of the usual three

This postcard entitled ''Contingent of New Zealand Troops''
''How have so gallantly volunteered for service in the Great European war in defence of the Empire'', shows the British section parading in front of a crowd in England

Puk, my own research on the British Section puggaree is still very much a work in progress. As yet I still have not found a second picture that will positively prove that a four colour puggaree was worn and that it is not just a 3 fold puggaree glitch in the photo, but in saying that, I haven’t found a photo that disproves it existence either.

The problem seems to be that the felt hats were only issued just prior to their embarkation as most photographs I have seen show the Service Dress cap being worn.
So far I only have six photos showing close ups of the felt hat being worn.