British Section NZEF

[pukman]

Here is a nice and clear photo of a unidentified New Zealand soldier wearing WW1 Onward general service collar badge.The photo was taken in either 1914 or 1916 in England,depending if he is British section or a convalescing soldier post Gallipoli.

Also he has an English made felt hat with a dome and snap fastener ,which when snapped in place creates the slouch hat effect.

(Update; Brent has pointed out the New Zealand curved shoulder title would mean that this soldier was re-kitted post March 1916,so therefore with the photo taken in England,the most likelihood that this soldier is a Galliopoli veteran who is convalescing in England)

[pukman]

Here is a very rare onboard photo of a British Section soldier Private ,latter Sapper James William Hamilton 4/103a and friend .The soldier on the left has only collar badges while the other wears no badges at all.

(photo, Colin Brown collection)

[atillathenunns]

I have a bit to add to this thread. (Just got to make the time to do it)
Until then, I thought this badge that has just come up for auction is worthy of a look.
I haven't checked out the silver marks, but according to the vendor, "Hallmarked to back for Chester 1916."

http://www.trademe.co.nz/antiques-co...-540703138.htm

[woronora]

Whilst trawling through the Internet I came across this site http://www.oldmagazinearticles.com/W...3#.UOflR7Z8PFk
which contains a page relating to British and Commonwealth Insignia (Bovril Handy Book and Diary of the War, 1917). It states that a NZ General Badge in 1917 was 'NZ' contained within oak leaves.

Cheers

John

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by woronora

Whilst trawling through the Internet I came across this site http://www.oldmagazinearticles.com/W...3#.UOflR7Z8PFk
which contains a page relating to British and Commonwealth Insignia (Bovril Handy Book and Diary of the War, 1917). It states that a NZ General Badge in 1917 was 'NZ' contained within oak leaves.

Cheers

John

John, it is a very interesting piece of the puzzle, and certainly it proves that in 1917, one of the New Zealand General Service badges that was produced (The one that for years has been mis-identified as being British Section) had fern leaves which appeared to some to look like oak leaves.

When I get a bit of time, I will dig out the original sketches of WW1 New Zealand General Service badges that were approved but never produced.

[Spr Jock]

Originally Posted by pukman

....... I know the silver fern is the most represented of the fern types badges,but there are other fern species in NZ without the serrated edge.Maybe this is a case of artistic liscence .The Otago Hussars hat badges could be considered in the same boat.Pattern one with the finer leaves and pattern two with the courser serrated edges.Two different impressions of the fern wreath.

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

Puk .....
New Zealand has over 190 species of native ferns, so I’m guessing it is likely to be one of them rather than a oak or laurel leaf. ....

Folks ,
the Ponga , the Silver Fern , is the fern , and here is why .

.....Maori made use of the ponga by cutting the fronds for sleeping on. In addition the fronds were also used as route markers in times of war. Making a track through the bush at night, Maori warriors would lay the silver fern fronds white side up, tips pointing in the direction of travel. The track could be seen at night by the apparent glow of the white frond contrasted against the dark background; enabling an attack of the enemy at first light......

If the badge designers and craftsmen did not know what they were making , and the history behind it , it is not surprising that they produced what they did .

I wonder what we would have if the rangiora leaf was chosen ......

Jock




Silver Fern , Ponga , ( cyathea dealbata)

[woronora]

I am beginning to think that the so called 'oak leaves' of the NZEF 'British Section badge' may in fact be the leaves of one of the common maidenhair ferns, such as Adiantum aethiopicum which is common in NZ, as well as other countries. I have attached an image of the leaves which shows a great similarity to the shape of those on the previously attributed British section badge.

Cheers

John

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by Spr Jock

If the badge designers and craftsmen did not know what they were making , and the history behind it , it is not surprising that they produced what they did.

IMO, You have pretty much hit the nail on the head.
J. R. Gaunt up until 1917 were the preferred suppliers of badges to the NZ military forces.
A fire in 1916 and overinflated prices in 1917, required badges to be sourced by other badge manufacturers, who IMO did not know the importance of the traditional fern shapes that Guant used in their badge designs.

[pukman]

Here is a rare photo postcard portrait of a New Zealand prisoner of war in WW1.Private Cecil Ernest Coles 10/3859 was taken prisoner circa February 1917. He is pictured here in Prisoner of war camp IX A K. He is wearing NZ Onwards cap and collar badges.!!!One of only about 400 New Zealanders taken prisoner in WW1

[atillathenunns]

Back in January of this year the War Memorial Manager at the Auckland War Memorial Museum contacted me in regards to the photos of HMS New Zealand that I had used in this thread.
I was able to help the museum with their project by submitting another 60 or so pictures of HMS New Zealand that I had found on the Internet, which had up to that point had eluded their researchers.

That project has now been completed by the Auckland War Memorial Museum and Torpedo Bay Navy Museum, and they now invite forum members to join them as they- “follow the battlecruiser on her world tour and gain insight into New Zealand's world of 1913 through newspaper reports, photos, personal stories, ephemera and collection objects from HMS New Zealand. “Hoist the flag and keep it flying, just to celebrate the day..” (Welcome poem for HMS New Zealand, Angus Cameron Robertson)”

http://www.hmsnewzealand.com/1913/04/12

“ONWARD”

[Tinto]

Thanks for the link, Brent. A great presentation.
Cheers, Tinto

[atillathenunns]

Is it ignorance, apathy or just good old greed?
Taking into account this dealer has read this thread and sent the following comments to me.

[Quote] "I must say that having also SEEN the most uncompelling "photographic evidence" re: the British Section NZEF collar badges in postcards on your forum ?
I am most unconvinced about their recent "theories" bandied about concerning these badges."

http://www.trademe.co.nz/antiques-co...-646629195.htm

[pukman]

With all respect to Phil (I buy a few badges off him and still hope to continue doing so)

The majority of badges being sold on internet sites as 'British section'' are cap badges

I have looked at many portrait photo's of British section men ,I am yet to find one that is wearing a hat size cap badge (they either wear collar size cap badges or no badge on their hats at all )

The only anecdotal reference so far produced of the term ''oak leaves'' is in post 64,which points to the General service badge 1917(actually 1916-1917),as worn by convalescing NZEF in the U.K as being the badge in question, not the earlier 1914 British section collar size badges .If anything the Cap badges being sold as British Section NZEF circa 1914 are actually NZEF general service badges circa 1916.

[atillathenunns]

The fact that is undeniable is that, all known photographs of the “New Zealand British Section” of the 1st NZEF, show a collar sized badge being worn on the slouch hat or peaked cap.

But probably the nail in the coffin, for the out dated theory that the NZ British Section wore the large size onward cap badge, such as the one being sold by Phillip James, is the badge collection of Sergeant Gibbs, which is prominently placed on page 3 and page 5, in the book “The New Zealanders at Gallipoli” by Major Fred Waite, and was printed and published under the Authority of the New Zealand Government by Whitcombe and Tombs.
The New Zealanders at Gallipoli book was the first of four NZ WW1 official history volumes that were produced, and was first put on sale on the 27th December 1919.
(Major Fred Waite was Chief Engineer Instructor, N.Z.E.F. Training Camps, 1916–18)
The photo of NZ British Section clearly shows a collar sized onward badge.
http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...t=27360&page=2



I like to think I have a good relationship with all our kiwi dealers, but old Atilla is a bit of a bad boy when it comes to commenting/asking questions on their Trademe auctions, however, once they have conducted their own research, in almost all cases they have reworded their auctions and have continued to do so.
Although he puts profit ahead of historic accuracy, I am on my last warning from Phillip, so I won’t be commenting on his Onward badge auction. Although the colour of the badge in photos 1 and 3 remind me of the fakes that are doing the rounds at the moment.

[woronora]

Hi Brent

It is interesting that Sgt. Gibbs collection of badges includes the Watts round collars for the Maori contingent. In the discussion of these Watts badges, I thought that the photographic evidence suggested that they were reinforcement badge worn by the 30th and 31st Reinforcements. Possibly Gibbs obtained these badges during the later part of the war or even post war. If so, this could pose a problem for the provenance of the alleged British section badge.

Regards

John