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  #1  
Old 17-10-14, 08:29 PM
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Default Canadian parachute corps cap badge opinions please

looking for opinions on the authenticity of this badge, it is in such good condition i am worried about it being a repro

Thanks in advance
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Old 17-10-14, 08:30 PM
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  #3  
Old 17-10-14, 08:31 PM
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Old 17-10-14, 09:11 PM
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Note the "damage" on the feather tips, coarse stipling on the back of the canopy, plus many other small details are troubling. Not good in my opinion.
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Old 18-10-14, 03:49 AM
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hmm. I'm going to stick my neck waaaay out on this one and say it's good.

Bill A's concerns noted, I think it has just as many good qualities. Most notably for me is that the letters in the scroll are crisp, the fine stipling behind the letters in the scroll is well defined and intact, as well as the horizontal lines that run just under the canopy and behind the shroud lines to indicate the rear curvature of the canopy are also complete and well defined. These are invariably missing or 'mushy' in detail on fakes.

The recent G-max fakes have a very faint casting line on the back that runs horizontally along the top of the scroll, I don't see that here. Other have noticed telltale dents and dings in the canopy.

In comparison to fig. 155 in Ken Joyce's book "Into the Maelstom", the construction and long footed lugs appear the same, as well as a surface defect on the feather just to the left most shroud line.

To Bill's concern about some of the stippling on the reverse side, this could just be surface blemish from a worn die or defect when it was given its gold wash coating.

To me it appears to be a fine example of an unissued badge?

Discuss...
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Old 18-10-14, 04:15 AM
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And this is why I promised my self I would never buy one. If even the experts have a hard time telling a real one from a fake there is no sense owning either.
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  #7  
Old 18-10-14, 04:32 AM
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Well I have to say that I'm a little surprised that anyone would think that badge is original, I have no doubt whatsoever that it is certainly not, get your money back!
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Old 18-10-14, 04:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Kelley View Post
...I'm a little surprised that anyone would think that badge is original, I have no doubt whatsoever that it is certainly not...
Any reason Frank? Please share with the class...
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  #9  
Old 18-10-14, 05:02 AM
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Yes indeed, I think it's awful, the colour, the lugs, the actual die striking of this particular badge, why is it that there are now so many different badges that are suggested to be original to what was such a small wartime organisation?
I think that is complete and utter dross.
I certainly would not go anywhere near it or indeed any other badge made like that one, the original poster in this thread would be far better off just paying the money and buying a good text book example.

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Any reason Frank? Please share with the class...
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  #10  
Old 18-10-14, 05:43 AM
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Default My opinion

I have mixed feelings about this badge. I have it on an on approval basis and have not made an investment yet. It has come to me from a reputablabe dealer. The striking seems to good for a repro, and as far as the damage to the wing tips, it is not clear to the naked eye. The camera on my ipad is extreemly good. i am not the most experiance collector out there but have a ton of badges and if this is a repro, its the best ive ever seen. Seems to be better quality back and front compared to the one Mr. brooker sold recently on ebay. If it is found to be a repro based on your opinions i guess i will look for one that look closer to the washed out look of the one chris recently sold
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  #11  
Old 18-10-14, 06:01 AM
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121155... is there something specific that is bugging you about this badge?
It would be a lot of money to part with if you are not sure. So you are most correct to get other opinions.

There are different known die strikes for genuine examples, ones with the indistinct back, which i believe Brooker identifies as being made by Birks. Others have crisp reverses. Lugs vary by manufacturer. known manufacturers listed by various sources are Breadner, Scully, Roden Bros. and Birks and I think Brooker also lists Mackenzie Clay in Winnipeg for those with the stamped brass lugs. (I'm going from memory here, so others more fmailiar with the badges may correct me, please)

Until others who specialize in 1CPB chime in (and we do have a couple here), I'll stick with my assessment for now.
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Old 18-10-14, 06:05 AM
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Frank,

I don’t wish to come across as being obtuse but your argument is weak. I’m not seeing what you are seeing, obviously, so help me out…

Regarding the awful colour, lugs and die strike…. are you familiar with the typical Canadian badge of the period?? Most look pretty shitty with that unnatural yellow colour being a hallmark of the unissued/unused brass badge.

To quote, “why are there now so many different badges that are suggested to be original to what is such a small wartime organization”. ??

Well, they issued three distinct patterns of badge over a three year period. Plastic, brass and bi-metal for Officers. According to the extremely well documented and aforementioned ‘text book’ by Ken Joyce, there were at least 4000 OR’s badges produced in brass alone between 1944 and 1945 (by a handful of manufacturers). His book also illustrates known, veteran acquired badges in off metals like copper and silver, as well as badges with manufacturing defects.

Despite the popularity of 1CPB badges and the high prices they command, which fuels the repro market, this is not a rare or even scarce badge to acquire. The ‘text book’ examples you speak of sell quite regularly online and at military shops and shows all across Canada.

Undoubtedly, there is a market for repro examples of this badge, and there are MANY on the market AND some that are scary in their likeness to a genuine examples. The original poster is right to question the authenticity of this particular example.

I’m perfectly willing to accept that this specific example is a fake and it may well be. BUT it does not seem to exhibit ALL the problems or even the typical problems of the known repros that have been discussed on the forum prior. If this is a fake, let’s suss out what are the tell-tale signs.

Simply dismissing it as ‘utter dross’ isn’t exactly a smoking gun…
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  #13  
Old 18-10-14, 06:42 AM
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I cannot understand why on earth you would have so many different die struck badges being produced from so many different manufacturers, just because a badge appears in a book it certainly does not make it original, moreover, if the author, or indeed anyone else for that matter, acquires a badge from a veteran, that in itself does not make the badge original to the period in which it was worn by the regiment, it all comes down to when and from whom did the veteran concerned obtain the badge in question.
To be honest, I think Louis Grimshaw got it right, in his book Ex Colis and he was not able to offer an opinion on all these die struck badges other than the fact they exist and some have been around for a long time, I certainly would not buy any of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WJ Miller View Post
Frank,

I don’t wish to come across as being obtuse but your argument is weak. I’m not seeing what you are seeing, obviously, so help me out…

Regarding the awful colour, lugs and die strike…. are you familiar with the typical Canadian badge of the period?? Most look pretty shitty with that unnatural yellow colour being a hallmark of the unissued/unused brass badge.

To quote, “why are there now so many different badges that are suggested to be original to what is such a small wartime organization”. ??

Well, they issued three distinct patterns of badge over a three year period. Plastic, brass and bi-metal for Officers. According to the extremely well documented and aforementioned ‘text book’ by Ken Joyce, there were at least 4000 OR’s badges produced in brass alone between 1944 and 1945 (by a handful of manufacturers). His book also illustrates known, veteran acquired badges in off metals like copper and silver, as well as badges with manufacturing defects.

Despite the popularity of 1CPB badges and the high prices they command, which fuels the repro market, this is not a rare or even scarce badge to acquire. The ‘text book’ examples you speak of sell quite regularly online and at military shops and shows all across Canada.

Undoubtedly, there is a market for repro examples of this badge, and there are MANY on the market AND some that are scary in their likeness to a genuine examples. The original poster is right to question the authenticity of this particular example.

I’m perfectly willing to accept that this specific example is a fake and it may well be. BUT it does not seem to exhibit ALL the problems or even the typical problems of the known repros that have been discussed on the forum prior. If this is a fake, let’s suss out what are the tell-tale signs.

Simply dismissing it as ‘utter dross’ isn’t exactly a smoking gun…
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  #14  
Old 18-10-14, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Kelley View Post
...why on earth you would have so many different die struck badges being produced from so many different manufacturers...
Ken Joyce's book is very good on citing specific period documents and sources, so I have no trouble believing the facts and figures therein. Also because of his diligence, I have no trouble believing the veteran and estate sources he cites and the sources of his photographic material. The publisher also has a reputation for high journalistic standards and quality research.

According to Joyce's book and the voluminous documents cited therein, the original order for brass OR badges was for 2000, required in 6-8 weeks, including the production of tools and dies.

The initial contract was awarded to Scully in Montreal, their quality and unadherence to the authorized GO saw them rejected in favour of Breadner, who took from Nov 44 to Jan 45 to finish the initial order, the dies were then sent to Roden to make a further 2000 after February of 1945.

It is also noted in an Archival record on the procurement of badges for the CASF that:
"...demands placed on companies in Canada to provide a continuous supply of metal badges at home and overseas resulted in the revision of contracts for the production of metal badges. In the event that a manufacturer could not meet the prescribed contract deadline, then the company had to ship tolls and dies to a manufacturer that could. This rapid re-allocation of tools and dies was implemented so as to keep up with a demand which prescribed a weekly delivery of 28,500 Canadian Army metal cap badges to the UK. - Maelstrom P.93 (emphasis mine)

Now, I work in a manufacturing plant. When we take an order or agree to a contract deadline, it is not unheard of for us to 'farm out' the work in whole or in part to other suppliers or EVEN our competitors in the interest of customer satisfaction and repeat business. It only makes sense.

So. How long does it take to make a badge?? In the case of the regiment I am most familiar with and that I have primary source documents on hand, the 1CACR; JR Gaunt was contracted in November of 44 to make 1000 brass badges. Tools and dies were approved and completed in December. They were able to Stamp all 1000 badges by the end of January, but only finish 500 in February, the remaining 500 were completed by the end of March. That's 5 months to make 1000 badges by one manufacturer. The finishing of the badges, being all done by hand and naturally assuming that the entire facility was not allocated to making one type of badge...

Sub-contract. that's how you get the job done on-time and that is how you end up with a variety of finishes, HOWEVER the Original DIE is the same in all cases. Repro artisits will not have the original die and therefore the differences in the DIE will be the primary tell to determine the fakes from the real deal, regardless of finish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Kelley View Post
...just because a badge appears in a book it certainly does not make it original, moreover, if the author, or indeed anyone else for that matter, acquires a badge from a veteran, that in itself does not make the badge original ... To be honest, I think Louis Grimshaw got it right, in his book Ex Colis...
oh, I see... your 'text book' is better than mine?

Knowledge didn't come to a grinding halt in the 1980's or at anytime, keep asking hard questions and look for answers wherever they may be. I for one am very grateful that passionate collectors, researchers and archivists want to seek ot the little details and challenge what may be our conventional thoughts on ANY particular subject. And then share that knowledge. I think that is what can keep one from becoming jaded or pessimistic about the hobby in the face of the growing reproduction problem.

However, none of this pertains directly to the original posters query and I look forward to the inciteful opinions of some of the others far more knowledgeable than me about 1CPB badges...
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  #15  
Old 18-10-14, 09:07 AM
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Well, I still don't understand why there have been so many die struck badges that have appeared on the market over the years since 1945 I've certainly seen ten or so, I've never trusted them, nor have I ever seen any with a good provenance.
I don't own a copy of Grimshaw's book, so I really can't comment on that, but in general, I would think it is not the case that one book is better than another, but, it was certainly written over thirty years ago and there was nothing like the numbers of different badges around back in those days.
I've only ever seen four badges that I'd be happy with, the Scully officers, the Hobson made embroidered officers, the plastic and the nice bright die cast brass ones, there is just something I don't like about the die struck ones, they are far too common and the differ rather too much.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WJ Miller View Post
Ken Joyce's book is very good on citing specific period documents and sources, so I have no trouble believing the facts and figures therein. Also because of his diligence, I have no trouble believing the veteran and estate sources he cites and the sources of his photographic material. The publisher also has a reputation for high journalistic standards and quality research.

According to Joyce's book and the voluminous documents cited therein, the original order for brass OR badges was for 2000, required in 6-8 weeks, including the production of tools and dies.

The initial contract was awarded to Scully in Montreal, their quality and unadherence to the authorized GO saw them rejected in favour of Breadner, who took from Nov 44 to Jan 45 to finish the initial order, the dies were then sent to Roden to make a further 2000 after February of 1945.

It is also noted in an Archival record on the procurement of badges for the CASF that:
"...demands placed on companies in Canada to provide a continuous supply of metal badges at home and overseas resulted in the revision of contracts for the production of metal badges. In the event that a manufacturer could not meet the prescribed contract deadline, then the company had to ship tolls and dies to a manufacturer that could. This rapid re-allocation of tools and dies was implemented so as to keep up with a demand which prescribed a weekly delivery of 28,500 Canadian Army metal cap badges to the UK. - Maelstrom P.93 (emphasis mine)

Now, I work in a manufacturing plant. When we take an order or agree to a contract deadline, it is not unheard of for us to 'farm out' the work in whole or in part to other suppliers or EVEN our competitors in the interest of customer satisfaction and repeat business. It only makes sense.

So. How long does it take to make a badge?? In the case of the regiment I am most familiar with and that I have primary source documents on hand, the 1CACR; JR Gaunt was contracted in November of 44 to make 1000 brass badges. Tools and dies were approved and completed in December. They were able to Stamp all 1000 badges by the end of January, but only finish 500 in February, the remaining 500 were completed by the end of March. That's 5 months to make 1000 badges by one manufacturer. The finishing of the badges, being all done by hand and naturally assuming that the entire facility was not allocated to making one type of badge...

Sub-contract. that's how you get the job done on-time and that is how you end up with a variety of finishes, HOWEVER the Original DIE is the same in all cases. Repro artisits will not have the original die and therefore the differences in the DIE will be the primary tell to determine the fakes from the real deal, regardless of finish.


oh, I see... your 'text book' is better than mine?

Knowledge didn't come to a grinding halt in the 1980's or at anytime, keep asking hard questions and look for answers wherever they may be. I for one am very grateful that passionate collectors, researchers and archivists want to seek ot the little details and challenge what may be our conventional thoughts on ANY particular subject. And then share that knowledge. I think that is what can keep one from becoming jaded or pessimistic about the hobby in the face of the growing reproduction problem.

However, none of this pertains directly to the original posters query and I look forward to the inciteful opinions of some of the others far more knowledgeable than me about 1CPB badges...
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