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  #1  
Old 09-09-20, 03:47 AM
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GMGC GMGC is offline
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Question Fake Machine Gun Corps Badge?

Folks, I could really use some advice from people who know what they're talking about.

I bought what is supposed to be a genuine WWI Grenadier Guards Machine Gun Corps cap badge from a seller on Ebay, but my spidey sense immediately started to tingle when the item arrived and:

1) It clearly is not the item that was depicted in the online auction images

2) It seems suspiciously shiny and "new" looking for a 100+ year old cap badge

3) There is some kind of red coating on a part of the back of the badge, either over or under what also seems (to me, total noob) like a sprayed-on dark coating, parts of which seem to have cracked, revealing tiny glimpses of shiny new metal beneath--not the kind of authentic patina I would expect to see on a badge made a century ago out of brass.

I don't know if the photos I'm posting will provide enough detail for anyone to render an opinion, but I'm hoping so, because I really need to know: have I been rooked, or does this look like it might be legit? I'm already annoyed at the switcheroo with the photo on the auction site versus the item I received, but I'll be doubly p*ssed (and looking to take appropriate action) if this is a modern fake.

I'm a complete novice in these matters, so I don't want to accuse an honest seller of malfeasance due to my own ignorance, but neither do I want to be screwed out of a not insignificant sum of money. Plus I'm amassing this and other memorabilia in the hope of framing them with a photo of my great grandfather, who served in the 1st Battalion Grenadier Guards and in the Guards Machine Gun Corps in WWI, and I'm voluntarily spending a premium price for authentic medals, cap badges, etc., so I'd like to get what I pay for, both for my own sense of justice, and to properly honor Grampy.

This is the front
of the badge that I bought. and here is a photo of the back--not sure if you can see the red paint-or-patina down at the 7 o'clock position and on the tips of the metal attachment loops, but it's definitely noticeable when you hold it in your hand, and to my (admittedly entirely novice) eyes, it just doesn't look right.

I'd appreciate the opportunity to benefit from your expertise, ladies and gentlemen.
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  #2  
Old 09-09-20, 05:57 AM
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Alan O Alan O is offline
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A fake badge.

The genuine Guards Machine Gun cap badges were in white metal and on sliders. Even those have been faked to a high standard,

I wold get your money back asap.

The other ranks badge were not made in brass, with lugs, or with pierced fronts (the latter being another fantasy variant)
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  #3  
Old 09-09-20, 07:04 AM
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dubaiguy dubaiguy is offline
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To avoid getting screwed again, you might want to look up the badge offered on eBay in the UK by ex-member 2747andy (eBay seller name). You won't go far wrong and you'll have a genuine badge for your great grandfather's collection albeit at a price reflecting that confidence. I have no connection to the seller except previously through this forum and occasional purchases over 10 years or so.
Mark

Last edited by dubaiguy; 09-09-20 at 07:12 AM.
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  #4  
Old 09-09-20, 07:31 AM
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Frank Kelley Frank Kelley is offline
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Awful, return it for a refund!


Quote:
Originally Posted by GMGC View Post
Folks, I could really use some advice from people who know what they're talking about.

I bought what is supposed to be a genuine WWI Grenadier Guards Machine Gun Corps cap badge from a seller on Ebay, but my spidey sense immediately started to tingle when the item arrived and:

1) It clearly is not the item that was depicted in the online auction images

2) It seems suspiciously shiny and "new" looking for a 100+ year old cap badge

3) There is some kind of red coating on a part of the back of the badge, either over or under what also seems (to me, total noob) like a sprayed-on dark coating, parts of which seem to have cracked, revealing tiny glimpses of shiny new metal beneath--not the kind of authentic patina I would expect to see on a badge made a century ago out of brass.

I don't know if the photos I'm posting will provide enough detail for anyone to render an opinion, but I'm hoping so, because I really need to know: have I been rooked, or does this look like it might be legit? I'm already annoyed at the switcheroo with the photo on the auction site versus the item I received, but I'll be doubly p*ssed (and looking to take appropriate action) if this is a modern fake.

I'm a complete novice in these matters, so I don't want to accuse an honest seller of malfeasance due to my own ignorance, but neither do I want to be screwed out of a not insignificant sum of money. Plus I'm amassing this and other memorabilia in the hope of framing them with a photo of my great grandfather, who served in the 1st Battalion Grenadier Guards and in the Guards Machine Gun Corps in WWI, and I'm voluntarily spending a premium price for authentic medals, cap badges, etc., so I'd like to get what I pay for, both for my own sense of justice, and to properly honor Grampy.

This is the front
of the badge that I bought. and here is a photo of the back--not sure if you can see the red paint-or-patina down at the 7 o'clock position and on the tips of the metal attachment loops, but it's definitely noticeable when you hold it in your hand, and to my (admittedly entirely novice) eyes, it just doesn't look right.

I'd appreciate the opportunity to benefit from your expertise, ladies and gentlemen.
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  #5  
Old 10-09-20, 01:09 AM
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wardog wardog is offline
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Hello GMGC. For info. the badge you have bought is a copy Guards Machine Gun Battalion (GMGB) badge. They later became the Guards Machine Gun Regiment (GMGR), with a different badge. Regards, Paul.
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  #6  
Old 10-09-20, 01:27 AM
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Thanks, everyone--the seller swears up and down that the item is genuine, and that the red color is just patina, but still has agreed to a refund.
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  #7  
Old 10-09-20, 02:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wardog View Post
The badge you have bought is a copy Guards Machine Gun Battalion (GMGB) badge. They later became the Guards Machine Gun Regiment (GMGR), with a different badge.
Thank you, Paul, and thanks everyone for the helpful feedback. Maybe with this many knowledgeable people able to assist, we can crowd-source the answer to another question, namely which badge should I be looking to buy if I want the one that accurately reflects Grampy's service?

In the Grenadier Guards documents I've found on my great grandfather's service, "Machine Gun Corps" and on one document "DMGC" are mentioned (I believe from other references that this refers to "D Battalion Grenadier Guards Machine Gun Corps" but I have seen Machine Gun Corps, Machine Gun Regiment, and Machine Gun Battalion all used very loosely and confusingly in histories, on auction sites, etc., so I want to be sure

My great grandfather's service in what is consistently cited in his official Army records documents as the Guards MGC, D Company, occurred entirely in England, at Chiseldon, and fell between the dates 11 July 1918 and 6 March 1919. So which badge am I seeking to represent that service--the two crossed machine guns surmounted by a crown in white metal with a slider on the back? One of the bewildering array of others?
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  #8  
Old 10-09-20, 01:21 PM
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wardog wardog is offline
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Some pictures of Training squads have passed through ebay recently.
I searched Guards Machine Gun then clicked on completed items. https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_f...&LH_Complete=1
There are a number of forum threads if you search Guards Machine Gun. I would think your relative would have worn the GMGB badge, and 'possibly' the later badge, but not sure of the earliest I have seen it worn in 1919- it is very scarce in pictures. The ones in pictures I link to are mid 1919. Regards, Paul. (a good GMGR badge is very scarce)
Further- this thread has good info. https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...chine+regiment
The name changed in May 1918, but it could well be the new badge was not worn until April 1919.

Last edited by wardog; 10-09-20 at 02:18 PM.
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