Leeds Pals cap badge/ real or fake?

[mm1]

Don't see many members get barred from the forum - very lenient compared to other sites, but, moderators - I think you need to step in here...getting very heated and, if ' Leeds pals ' doesn't like the comments I think he should to put it politely , clear off, go and do his research wherever he likes and stop using the forum to try and get other members to support his misinformed comments. He clearly does not like being told he is wrong and that his badge is a duffer and as for his comment about wishing he could make fake badges..!

Mark

[oc14]

Originally Posted by Leeds Pals

My quest continues. I live in Leeds. I have an appointment at the Leeds museum to look at there archives. I ask an appointment to see there archives at Leeds Armouries! But still waiting for a date. I also ask the York museum to see there archives. I have been to the Leeds Pals camp site in the dales, every rembrence day in stand by the cenototh in Leeds.

Good luck with that, I grew up very close to Leeds and knew several of the original Leeds Pals (Clifford Dalby, Arthur Hollingsworth and Alan Hay) I worked alongside Laurie Milner (who then worked at the Imperial War Museum) and was a major contributor to his book "Leeds Pals" in terms of sourcing original archive documentation as well as privately owned items (mostly in collections or with families) including badges and insignia, documents and photographs and medals. I have been collecting since 1969. I mention this so that you may have an understanding of my level of knowledge with regard to the Leeds Pals (i.e. that my knowledge is not just gleaned from books but from first hand sources).

Let me just clarify this for you, just in case you are hard of understanding - THERE IS ONE PATTERN OF LEEDS PALS OTHER RANKS CAP BADGE - ALL OTHERS THAT DO NOT CONFORM TO THIS PATTERN ARE FAKE.

Leeds City museum and the York Museum (I'm assuming that you refer to the Regimental Museum just by Clifford's Tower ??) and it's staff, however well meaning they may be, do not have the in depth level of subject knowledge relating to badges that serious collectors do.

PL

[leigh kitchen]

Originally Posted by Semloh Retlaw

Just been thinking have any of these fakers used the lost wax process. I used that method when I was into Jewelry making

"Earless" owls with different sized heads, the one on the left is die struck with a slider, the one on the right with lugs appears to have been cast from a badge struck from that die and is in a slightly reduced size.
I took them to be fake Leeds Pals but they are possibly Corporation badges?

So oc14 you work on the book with Laurie Milner as you claim ? How come there is the common fake badge printed within the second page? Answer please.

To mm1 you miss quote quoted me. I never said I would make fakes. I said if I had the skills to make fakes I would make them the same as the originals. I would not be flooding the market with theses as original as I have pointed out I have a so called fake. Now who made theses, they are well made, yes there not Leeds pals, but who used them?

Originally Posted by Leeds Pals

To mm1 you miss quote quoted me. I never said I would make fakes. I said if I had the skills to make fakes I would make them the same as the originals. I would not be flooding the market with theses as original as I have pointed out I have a so called fake. Now who made theses, they are well made, yes there not Leeds pals, but who used them?

I do own a copy of the common fake that Milner has in his book, I bought his book in 1991, the common fake I bought I did think was a original going by the one printed in the book, I since got the other one which look very close to the one they have in museum collections
I only ask could there be two types. I have heard of private purchases and locally made aboard. I have never seen this version talk about before. Maybe this badge is new to you all.

So I will call you so called experts out. What's the history on the fake cap badgers, who made them? Leeds city council? Tram badge? Made for a film? Something else? Let's put it to bed. Calling them fakes is just not enough. Fake Leeds pals maybe, fake Leeds trams maybe,fake Leeds prison maybe. Who was theses cap badges made for. Can anyone tell us.

[QUOTE=oc14;493557]Good luck with that, I grew up very close to Leeds and knew several of the original Leeds Pals (Clifford Dalby, Arthur Hollingsworth and Alan Hay) I worked alongside Laurie Milner (who then worked at the Imperial War Museum) and was a major contributor to his book "Leeds Pals" in terms of sourcing original archive documentation as well as privately owned items (mostly in collections or with families) including badges and insignia, documents and photographs and medals. I have been collecting since 1969. I mention this so that you may have an understanding of my level of knowledge with regard to the Leeds Pals (i.e. that my knowledge is not just gleaned from books but from first hand sources).

Let me just clarify this for you, just in case you are hard of understanding - THERE IS ONE PATTERN OF LEEDS PALS OTHER RANKS CAP BADGE - ALL OTHERS THAT DO NOT CONFORM TO THIS PATTERN ARE FAKE.

Leeds City museum and the York Museum (I'm assuming that you refer to the Regimental Museum just by Clifford's Tower ??) and it's staff, however well meaning they may be, do not have the in depth level of subject knowledge relating to badges that serious collectors do.

PL[/QUOTE
I do not believe you had anything to do with the research in the book. You have a copy of the book and pretend you met the original pals.

[Luke H]

[QUOTE=Leeds Pals;493763]

Originally Posted by oc14

Good luck with that, I grew up very close to Leeds and knew several of the original Leeds Pals (Clifford Dalby, Arthur Hollingsworth and Alan Hay) I worked alongside Laurie Milner (who then worked at the Imperial War Museum) and was a major contributor to his book "Leeds Pals" in terms of sourcing original archive documentation as well as privately owned items (mostly in collections or with families) including badges and insignia, documents and photographs and medals. I have been collecting since 1969. I mention this so that you may have an understanding of my level of knowledge with regard to the Leeds Pals (i.e. that my knowledge is not just gleaned from books but from first hand sources).

Let me just clarify this for you, just in case you are hard of understanding - THERE IS ONE PATTERN OF LEEDS PALS OTHER RANKS CAP BADGE - ALL OTHERS THAT DO NOT CONFORM TO THIS PATTERN ARE FAKE.

Leeds City museum and the York Museum (I'm assuming that you refer to the Regimental Museum just by Clifford's Tower ??) and it's staff, however well meaning they may be, do not have the in depth level of subject knowledge relating to badges that serious collectors do.

PL[/QUOTE
I do not believe you had anything to do with the research in the book. You have a copy of the book and pretend you met the original pals.

I think you’re trolling and seriously taking the Michael now.

[gb64]

Originally Posted by Leeds Pals

So I will call you so called experts out. What's the history on the fake cap badgers, who made them? Leeds city council? Tram badge? Made for a film? Something else? Let's put it to bed. Calling them fakes is just not enough. Fake Leeds pals maybe, fake Leeds trams maybe,fake Leeds prison maybe. Who was theses cap badges made for. Can anyone tell us.

A great percentage of fakes of the Leeds Pals along with many many other badges were made to supply the demand of collectors ,using all means of dies and methods & sizes but never quite matching an original badge.As many have already said to you there is only one other ranks original Leeds Pals cap badge and most definitely not the one you show on the paper work, that is as stated a printed crest not a cap badge , this was done a lot, I know your probably trying to convince yourself on this more than one pattern of badge idea but I’ll doubt you will convince anyone else on this forum.

Gerard

If this thread upsets you all good. Many manufactures was involved same as Germany, You all think it's all made by one company end of, so some museum has a badge or medal and thats is made by them. How about others that made them. There is some differents. The British army never recognise the cap badges of the Leeds pals. All West Yorkshire regiments had the hourse cap badge apart from the Leeds rifles and Leeds pals! Even the Bradford pals had the hourse cap badge. This cap badge I own is a private purchases one for a Officer or locally made in Egypt. Remember Officers can buy private purchase cap badges. Silver cap badges was not recommended after 1915, they was also blackened.

If this thread upsets you all good. Many manufactures was involved same as Germany, You all think it's all made by one company end of, so some museum has a badge or medal and thats is made by one manufacture them. How about others that made them. There is some differents. The British army never recognise the cap badges of the Leeds pals. All West Yorkshire regiments had the hourse cap badge apart from the Leeds rifles and Leeds pals! Even the Bradford pals had the hourse cap badge. This cap badge I own is a private purchases one for a Officer or locally made in Egypt. Remember Officers can buy private purchase cap badges. Silver cap badges was not recommended after 1915, they was also blackened.

[gb64]

Originally Posted by Leeds Pals

If this thread upsets you all good. Many manufactures was involved same as Germany, You all think it's all made by one company end of, so some museum has a badge or medal and thats is made by them. How about others that made them. There is some differents. The British army never recognise the cap badges of the Leeds pals. All West Yorkshire regiments had the hourse cap badge apart from the Leeds rifles and Leeds pals! Even the Bradford pals had the hourse cap badge. This cap badge I own is a private purchases one for a Officer or locally made in Egypt. Remember Officers can buy private purchase cap badges. Silver cap badges was not recommended after 1915, they was also blackened.

The thread doesn’t upset me , it takes a lot more than a discussion on a cap badge to upset me ( excluding when the wife finds out how much some of them cost me )Each to there own thoughts on this but I definitely know which side I’m on! I guess you’ll realise who’s correct one day, maybe it’s when you come to sell your collection and it’s pointed out to you again , unless of course the buyers don’t know the difference, some people don’t you know

Gerard

[badger123]

Originally Posted by Leeds Pals

If this thread upsets you all good. Many manufactures was involved same as Germany, You all think it's all made by one company end of, so some museum has a badge or medal and thats is made by one manufacture them. How about others that made them. There is some differents. The British army never recognise the cap badges of the Leeds pals. All West Yorkshire regiments had the hourse cap badge apart from the Leeds rifles and Leeds pals! Even the Bradford pals had the hourse cap badge. This cap badge I own is a private purchases one for a Officer or locally made in Egypt. Remember Officers can buy private purchase cap badges. Silver cap badges was not recommended after 1915, they was also blackened.

Is that you Peter?

Originally Posted by gb64

The thread doesn’t upset me , it takes a lot more than a discussion on a cap badge to upset me ( excluding when the wife finds out how much some of them cost me )Each to there own thoughts on this but I definitely know which side I’m on! I guess you’ll realise who’s correct one day, maybe it’s when you come to sell your collection and it’s pointed out to you again , unless of course the buyers don’t know the difference, some people don’t you know

Gerard

So all West Yorkshire regiments cap badges was made by one manufacture ? I know Leeds pals cap badge was not recognise by the war department! So they was not met by the standard issues.