Very Sad! - A Vicious Circle!

[Sonofacqms]

I have in the past tried to tell punters at fairs that certain dealers sell fake badges made to look old and they do not seem to care, I don't bother now, but look at the dealers stock, I have bought original badges at £1.00 each from a dealer who said they were restrikes.

On the other hand I have been after an Essex and Suffolk Cyclist cap badge for years, I bought one online some time ago for over £200 and sent it back as it was a fake, the dealer refunded my money and that was it.

Last weekend I saw another for £50 with the small J.R. GAUNT.LONDON on the slider, now if I had wanted one for a display as a gapfiller it's better to pay £50 than £200.

By the way I did not buy it . . !

Rob

[wardog]

There is a dodgy 14th Royal Irish Rifles-YCV on eBay at the moment that someone could end up paying about £100 or more for. An example of which I have posted on the forum myself in the past. Regards, Paul.

[Frank Kelley]

Gentlemen,
I really think it to be a case of buyer beware, but, this does high light the basic need to do your homework before parting with the hard earned cash.

Originally Posted by wardog

There is a dodgy 14th Royal Irish Rifles-YCV on eBay at the moment that someone could end up paying about £100 or more for. An example of which I have posted on the forum myself in the past. Regards, Paul.

[Malcolm Davey]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Owch!

Malc are you certain the MP badge was not kosher!

A bit drastic but certainly positive!!

Andy

Trust me Andy if you had seen the back of it you would have no doubts.
Nothing like the others I have

[ASR142]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Alan,
what a ludicrous statement, it may not be illegal to sell "Fake" badges, but I'd be pretty surprised if were not some sort of offence to sell them as genuine, even allegedly unknowingly?

I can see the requirement for "Copy" badges, but just like the badges sold by the Gurkha Museum, marking them clearly as a "COPY" should be a legal or at least minimum requirement?

I think the majority of reproduction badges are already in circulation, or sat in boxes in a dusty old "Lock Up/Lock Ups" somewhere, just waiting for "Arry the Fake Pedlar" to pick up his next consignment!

Perhaps knowledgeable collectors could stem the flow or circulation by marking the sliders with "COPY"? Does anyone know where a "Hard Numbering" stamp could be produced!

Andy

HI ANDY
It would be cheeper to find c stamps from stamping sets and just put a c on the slider i will have a word with a blacksmith chap and see what he recokons next week !! steve

[magpie]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Alan,
what a ludicrous statement, it may not be illegal to sell "Fake" badges, but I'd be pretty surprised if were not some sort of offence to sell them as genuine, even allegedly unknowingly?

I can see the requirement for "Copy" badges, but just like the badges sold by the Gurkha Museum, marking them clearly as a "COPY" should be a legal or at least minimum requirement?

I think the majority of reproduction badges are already in circulation, or sat in boxes in a dusty old "Lock Up/Lock Ups" somewhere, just waiting for "Arry the Fake Pedlar" to pick up his next consignment!

Perhaps knowledgeable collectors could stem the flow or circulation by marking the sliders with "COPY"? Does anyone know where a "Hard Numbering" stamp could be produced!

Andy

Try here
http://www.pryormarking.com/marking-.../overview.html

[davec2]

I appreciate the fact that this thread has wandered slightly from Andy's original point but I get the feeling that as far as someone, anyone, acting honestly re copy badges is concerned, it will always be left to the individual's conscience, from experience ( yes folks, I do have a little experience ) but from experience, there are just too many buyers wanting cheap badges.

Remember also that no matter how hard you try to " police " the situation, a small group and we are a small group, might just as easily build a brick wall for us all to bang our heads against ??

The used car trade is a good example, no matter how many rules and regulations are brought in, you can still go round the corner to buy a cheap motor and get screwed into the bargain ??

Just my 10 pence worth !!!

Dave.

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by magpie

Try here
http://www.pryormarking.com/marking-.../overview.html

Andy,
thanks, I might just price up a "COPY" stamp and mark the sliders of any badges I'm 1000% certain are wrong!

I still think there is a place for reproduction items within all aspects of Militaria collecting and although I won't be sending any to the breakers, I will certainly attempt to make them identifiable as suspect/repro/copy!

Andy

[badger123]

I do think that what some members have said about marking copy/fake badges with a stamp is a good suggestion and will at least go some way to alerting the unwary or new collector should those badges get back into circulation again (which they are bound to do at some stage).

Its all well and good saying that there's no substitute for doing your homework/research but that's based on building up experience and having hindsight which is often paid for at great financial cost. How many times on this forum do we see people asking whether a badge is genuine AFTER they have bought it? Surely if the badge was marked as a copy they could make their mind up before they bought it? If a collector wants a badge as a gap filler or doesn't mind having a copy in their collection well that's up to them but at least if its marked, in years to come when the collection is sold on at least the copies will be identifiable.

isn't it time there was some sort of action? Clearly saying 'we must do our homework' is not having the desired effect as people are still unwittingly buying copies!

Why shouldn't we 'few' start to take proper action, who knows, it may snowball and eventually become the norm and at least some of the copies in circulation will be easier to identify.

From little acorns and all that.....

Ivan

[badger123]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Andy,
thanks, I might just price up a "COPY" stamp and mark the sliders of any badges I'm 1000% certain are wrong!

I still think there is a place for reproduction items within all aspects of Militaria collecting and although I won't be sending any to the breakers, I will certainly attempt to make them identifiable as suspect/repro/copy!

Andy

Very responsible attitude Andy, maybe we need more of this not only on the forum but in the badge collecting fraternity.

[Warstone]

You'd be better stamping the body of the badge. It's easy to replace a slider.

[norfolk regt man]

Fake and copies.

A friend of mine has collected fake badges for over 50 years.
each one has been given to him or paided very very little for.
he has them all on display in two sections, copies/repro. and fake/ made up badges
They start with COX types and go right up to current day C***.

Its a great ref source for me, but when I come to buy it @ .50p per badge , it will still cost today £1421.00 (2842 badges).


he has a saying, some people enjoy a dish of food for £50, I prefer it for £5.00.
My point here is some people enjoy collecting badges, and don't need to know anything else about them.

[oc14]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Andy,
thanks, I might just price up a "COPY" stamp and mark the sliders of any badges I'm 1000% certain are wrong!

I still think there is a place for reproduction items within all aspects of Militaria collecting and although I won't be sending any to the breakers, I will certainly attempt to make them identifiable as suspect/repro/copy!

Andy

Admirable although this sentiment is; it possibly opens up a whole new problem- fast forward twenty years to a militaria fair somewhere in the uk and imagine a new young collector being told "well it's not marked copy so that guarantees that it is100% genuine "
Just a thought
PL

[davec2]

Originally Posted by norfolk regt man

Fake and copies.

A friend of mine has collected fake badges for over 50 years.
each one has been given to him or paided very very little for.
he has them all on display in two sections, copies/repro. and fake/ made up badges
They start with COX types and go right up to current day C***.

Its a great ref source for me, but when I come to buy it @ .50p per badge , it will still cost today £1421.00 (2842 badges).


he has a saying, some people enjoy a dish of food for £50, I prefer it for £5.00.
My point here is some people enjoy collecting badges, and don't need to know anything else about them.

Hi norfolk regt man,

Every time this subject is broached, I jump on my soap box and try to explain to the few that there are thousands of collectors who only want a cheap representative of a regiment and are quite happy to buy restrike/copies etc, etc.

Not this time ! what I have said in the past appears to have the same effect as water off a duck's back, so a tale with a similarity to that of your friend but far more serious.

Some know it already and have just grasped their head with their hands and are saying, as I type, oh no, not again but it highlights the down side of wanting genuine badges as opposed to any badges.

I started collecting badges about ten years ago, the odd badge from ebay sellers but the majority from dealers ! yes I said dealers !! when I had amassed about 400 badges ( your friend has nearly 3,000 ), something happened to make me have doubts and over a period of several months, all my badges were vetted by three different forum members, I barely knew them at the time but they were willing to help me and indeed, still do, thanks for that gents.

A lot were examined from photo's but quite a few were actually sent to one of the three, let us not forget that at the time, I had probably spent in excess of £4,500 on these badges ( your friends are estimated to be worth just over £1,400 ), so to be told eventually that all the badges I had were worth in the region of £350 came as one hell of a shock, I nearly packed up on the spot but I was convinced to try again, which I did and that is why I still have three mentors on the forum !!

I openly sell copies on ebay but I always make the customers know that I am selling a copy, if I am not sure, it is sold as a possible copy, not possibly genuine and only when I can guarantee a badge will I call it genuine, if my attitude upsets any of the forum members then I am sorry but there is a very lucrative market out there for copies and why should I charge someone £20 for a genuine badge when all they want is a badge for a fiver ???????

Here endeth my much told tale which can of course be verified by at least three forum members, it is not a rant, it is a statement of fact and I always use it to make sure I don't try and mount my own moral high horse ??

Dave.

[badger123]

Dave,

Nowt wrong with getting on your moral high horse, if you've spent that much unknowingly on copies/fakes then maybe you've earned the right to have a rant.

There's also nothing wrong with selling copies IF THATS WHAT PEOPLE WANT and its commendable that you (and several others on this forum) make sure they are properly described as copies when you do sell them.

The problem is not your honesty or integrity (which I do not doubt for one minute, you are one of the most honest blokes I know) but the problem is the honesty or integrity of the dubious dealer who will eventually get hold of the copies and will sell them as the real deal and the whole cycle starts again.

The point I have is that is if someone wants a copy, that's fine, but lets make sure its obvious to EVERYONE that its a copy.

If we made a start at least its a start and yes, not every single badge would be marked as a copy but at least over time many would be marked.

isn't it better to have 5000 out of 5 million copies marked as copies than none out of 5 million?

Ivan