EU referendum

[Sawstonjohn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBk490qijho

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by Sawstonjohn

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBk490qijho

I watched this a couple of months ago.... EU is not Europe and Europe is not the EU. Great speech and hits the mark perfectly.

[Hoot]

Thanks for that. Great to hear an intelligent and very well put speech by an intelligent and wise speaker. Not something you see much of these days.

[BWEF]

Yesterday you were quoting Nazi's, and today you are quoting what some call Neo Nazis, and all call far right.

Some of you people need to take a long hard look at yourselves.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37274201

In economic terms Brexit can not be done without wrecking the economy, no matter what quotes from a cheap thriller writer some far right German politician comes up with.

You might say that this man was democratically elected. So was Hitler. It would seem that, like Hitler, this man also has some modern day Goebbels writing his propaganda.

Tell the people what they want to hear and they will cheer you to the rafters, but Brexit still can not be done.

Originally Posted by BWEF

.

Some of you people need to take a long hard look at yourselves.

BWEF, Been following the thread out of interest, but just so i'm straight in my own mind. Are you saying that all people, who believe in the right of the British People to govern themselves are Nazi's? Regards Mark

[High Wood]

Originally Posted by BWEF

Yesterday you were quoting Nazi's, and today you are quoting what some call Neo Nazis, and all call far right.

I was quoting two architects of a united Europe, both of whom lied to the masses to further their political aims. I did so, because despite their obvious political differences, they both had the same aim, to lead the European people into a united Europe under their control, either by guile or, if necessary, by force.

You yourself quoted Vladimir Ilyich Lenin, so by using your logic, I would be correct to assume that you are a hard line communist, what all call Far Left.

Anyone, unblinkered by political dogma and, who has a fair knowledge of 20th century history, will know that the Far Left have caused as least as much death and destruction to life, liberty and property as the Far Right.

Far left and Far Right are two sides of the same coin. No sane, rational person wants either and I, as a relatively sane individual, wish a plague on both their houses.

That said, when you start implying that everyone who doesn't agree with your own opinion is a fanatical, jack booted fascist, then i would suggest that you need to take a long, hard look at yourself.

I await your apology, but I won't be holding my breath.

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by MarkGD

BWEF, Been following the thread out of interest, but just so i'm straight in my own mind. Are you saying that all people, who believe in the right of the British People to govern themselves are Nazi's? Regards Mark

To quote Monty Python ...... "symbolic of his struggle against reality".

"Projection" is always a tactic of the left :-
Psychological projection is a defence mechanism in which the human ego defends itself against unconscious impulses or qualities (both positive and negative) by denying their existence in themselves while attributing them to others. For example, a person who is habitually rude may constantly accuse other people of being rude. It incorporates blame shifting.

[Hoot]

So, because I praised a speech made by Alexander Gauland then I must assume that I am considered to be a Neo-Nazi Headbanger by some people. As it happens I am also a fan of Nigel Farage so I dread to think what I am now.

[Phil2M]

Originally Posted by Hoot

So, because I praised a speech made by Alexander Gauland then I must assume that I am considered to be a Neo-Nazi Headbanger by some people. As it happens I am also a fan of Nigel Farage so I dread to think what I am now.

Confused?

Conflicted?

Complicated?

[BWEF]

Originally Posted by MarkGD

BWEF, Been following the thread out of interest, but just so i'm straight in my own mind. Are you saying that all people, who believe in the right of the British People to govern themselves are Nazi's? Regards Mark

No, I am not saying that.

I am saying that people who play German alt right propaganda need to have an honest look at themselves. As do the other wing of Brexiteers, those who get their ideas from Moscow.

The British people do govern themselves. All the time that we have been in the EEC/EU all our laws have been made at Westminster.
.
It even says so in the Brexit White Paper.

Originally Posted by BWEF

The British people do govern themselves. All the time that we have been in the EEC/EU all our laws have been made at Westminster.

Thank you for the clarification on your statement, I was pretty sure that was not the case.

However your statement above is incorrect. The European Communities Act, passed by Parliament in 1972, accepted the supremacy of EU law. That principle has also been endorsed by the UK courts. Regards Mark

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by BWEF

The British people do govern themselves. All the time that we have been in the EEC/EU all our laws have been made at Westminster.
.
It even says so in the Brexit White Paper.

EU laws in areas for which the EU is responsible override any conflicting laws of member countries.

Two important ideas make this system work. These are ‘supremacy’, meaning the higher status of EU laws compared to national laws, and ‘direct effect’, meaning that EU laws can be relied on in court.

Both these constitutional principles were recognised decades ago in leading decisions of the EU court.

The court said that they were necessary to ensure the survival of the EU legal system and to guarantee that EU rules are followed in all member countries.

The supremacy of EU laws

The principle of supremacy, or primacy, describes the relationship between EU law and national law.

It says that EU law should prevail if it conflicts with national law.

This ensures that EU rules are applied uniformly throughout the Union.

If national laws could contradict the EU treaties or laws passed by the EU institutions, there wouldn’t be this single set of rules in all member countries.

The UK has accepted the supremacy of EU law for some time

Other member countries have been more reluctant to accept the supremacy of EU law than the United Kingdom.

The European Communities Act, passed by Parliament in 1972** , accepted the supremacy of EU law. That principle has also been endorsed by the UK courts.

Although a more recent law included some restrictions on the application of the supremacy principle in the UK, the principle itself was not challenged.

Given the doctrine of Parliamentary sovereignty in the UK, meaning that there are no limits on what Acts can be passed or removed, it might be possible for Parliament to contradict EU laws. But this would seem incompatible with continued membership of the EU.

EU laws have direct effect

Direct effect refers to the rights—like free movement, non-discrimination, etc—that people and companies can claim under EU law.

It says that people can use clear and precise EU laws in court against governments, or private parties, when they’re in breach of EU law.

Down to details: EU regulations and directives

‘Regulations’ and ‘directives’ occupy a central position in the system of EU rules. The important ones are usually agreed by government representatives on the EU’s Council, as well as by the directly elected European Parliament.

Regulations and directives are legally binding. They normally apply in all 28 EU member countries, although some directives are addressed to particular members.

And both types of law are based on articles of the EU treaties that give the EU institutions the authority to pass laws in the relevant field.

For example, the Working Time Directive invokes the treaty article giving the EU power to pass laws on working conditions.

But there are important differences between regulations and directives.

Regulations become part of national law as soon as they’re passed. EU countries must pass their own laws to put directives into practice.

That’s because directives set out an objective and give EU states the choice of how to achieve it.

** Edward Heath took the UK in because "he" thought its was best..... the Country was not asked.

A proper Labour MP Peter Shore in 1975 https://youtu.be/ZoO6146qM5g in the Oxford Union Debate. (Probably considered a fascist by some today!?) You will recognise everything he says then... today. He knew exactly what was going to happen.

[BWEF]

Originally Posted by High Wood

I was quoting two architects of a united Europe, both of whom lied to the masses to further their political aims. I did so, because despite their obvious political differences, they both had the same aim, to lead the European people into a united Europe under their control, either by guile or, if necessary, by force.

You yourself quoted Vladimir Ilyich Lenin, so by using your logic, I would be correct to assume that you are a hard line communist, what all call Far Left.

Anyone, unblinkered by political dogma and, who has a fair knowledge of 20th century history, will know that the Far Left have caused as least as much death and destruction to life, liberty and property as the Far Right.

Far left and Far Right are two sides of the same coin. No sane, rational person wants either and I, as a relatively sane individual, wish a plague on both their houses.

That said, when you start implying that everyone who doesn't agree with your own opinion is a fanatical, jack booted fascist, then i would suggest that you need to take a long, hard look at yourself.

I await your apology, but I won't be holding my breath.

Firstly, to repeat, I did not quote Lenin. I pointed out that what the the Daily Mail said on its front page was a quote from Lenin.

"That said, when you start implying that everyone who doesn't agree with your own opinion is a fanatical, jack booted fascist, then i would suggest that you need to take a long, hard look at yourself."

I have said above that many of my friends and family voted for Brexit, However, I would not class them as "jack booted fascists". I would class them as misled or delusional.

Even my cousin who has as good as signed her own death warrant in the event of a no deal Brexit.

You people have quoted Communists and neo Nazis and are now starting to call the Prime Minister a traitor.

The simple fact is that Brexit can not be done without wrecking our economy, no matter what you voted for. I would have thought that the chaos in Parliament would have been ample proof of this.

I do realise that this forum is in many ways a bubble.If anybody has had "British Exceptionalism" drilled into them, no pun intended, it is servicemen.

However, in the world of today, in pure economic terms, we can not afford to
stand alone.

The Empire has gone. The Old Dominions are going with the EU, and if you think places like India will be coming to our aid you are just plain wrong.

Actually I agree with you when you wish a plague on both the far left and the far right. But then again, I am not the one circulating far right videos.

[BWEF]

Originally Posted by MarkGD

Thank you for the clarification on your statement, I was pretty sure that was not the case.

However your statement above is incorrect. The European Communities Act, passed by Parliament in 1972, accepted the supremacy of EU law. That principle has also been endorsed by the UK courts. Regards Mark

Mark

Well, if you think the statement incorrect you need to take it up with the House of Commons.

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...on-white-paper

I think that both ldeas are possibly true, That Westminster made all our laws in agreement with what the EEC/EU collectively had decided..

[BWEF]

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

To quote Monty Python ...... "symbolic of his struggle against reality".

"Projection" is always a tactic of the left :-
Psychological projection is a defence mechanism in which the human ego defends itself against unconscious impulses or qualities (both positive and negative) by denying their existence in themselves while attributing them to others. For example, a person who is habitually rude may constantly accuse other people of being rude. It incorporates blame shifting.

The Left?

Now I am of the left because I love my country and am pointing out that the people who voted to leave the EU have made a grave mistake that they will live to regret?

How well do you think my collections of badges, flashes, identity discs and poppies would go down in a gender workshop?