Staybrite Caernarvon & Denbighshire badges

[Alan O]

Gus-gemma

That's an interesting fact. If they went from the a/a Carnarevon and Denbigh a/a badges to Flint and Den a/a badges (but wore RA badges) it does rather beg the question who made the bimetal F&D badges and for whom?

As a 'new' design in the 1960s (when bimetal were no longer being made for new designs or issued) the sealed pattern would usually be for a/a only and not for bi-metal.

It was not unknown for yeomanry soldiers to buy bi-metal replacements and this was common in the 1980s and 90's to replace the issued a/a but if the F&D Yeomanry were only wearing RA gun badges then this does not apply.



Alan

[GriffMJ]

My guess is, Alan, that Guant got an order from the new organisation ... thinking that they would carry on like their predecessors .... but got new orders from RA HQ to wear the RA cap badge only.

[Alan O]

Griff

The RA's decision to mandate RA badges would explain why the A/A was never worn but there is no explanation for the bimetal badge as any new design sealed in the 1960s would be in a/a and not bimetal.

You can assume that the units in the 1950s had both versions with the first bi-metal pattern being replaced in a/a. However just like the 1958 Inf Bde badges show and later new inf, cav, yeomanry and corps design introduced in the late 50s and 60s show, they were only found in a/a.

[GriffMJ]

The 372nd (F&DYeo) Regiment started life at the same time as the Leics & Derby PAO Yeo. First issue of the amalgamated cap badge for the LDY was the Bi-Metal Cap badge (Gaunt)..... it was later in 1963 that the AA appeared.

I suspect the 372nd had every right to order their own cap badge, but the RA HQ probably sent out a standing order that the RA cap badge was to be worn throughout all its TA units. The Regiment probably used its allowance for its own badge in the hope they would be allowed to wear them one day..... meanwhile they got the RA cap badge via RA HQ stores?

For both regiments (372nd & LDY) the Bimetal will have the J R GAUNT LONDON stamped going "up" the slider...... the AA going "down".

The 372nd's vehicles certainly had their own badges on them https://www.paoyeomanry.org.uk/DenbighYeo372.htm :-

[Alan O]

I get the L&D yeo move from bi-metal to a/a but as the C&D Yeo was made in a/a then it's issued replacement should not be bimetal.

It's only if the regt privately ordered bimetal badges (or someone else decided to order them) ignoring any s/p design and outside normal procurement channels then the badge could be contemporary. As they do not seem to have worn then this seems an expensive waste of regimental funds!

[GriffMJ]

...see my updated post #30

[Mike H]

The information in K&K gives sealing dates of Jan 1952 for the C&D ano and Jan 1958 for the F&D ano

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by Mike H

The information in K&K gives sealing dates of Jan 1952 for the C&D ano and Jan 1958 for the F&D ano

....."the books" are not 100%, especially when it comes to the Yeomanry.

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by Mike H

The information in K&K gives sealing dates of Jan 1952 for the C&D ano and Jan 1958 for the F&D ano

So the issued (sealed pattern) badges were a/a and the bimetal ones are not.

If you have a copy of Chris Marsh's book you should read the notes on page 557 which records and dates the War Office Dress Committee minutes about both these units' a/a badges.

[GriffMJ]

....can anyone show me a Leicestershire PAO Yeomanry AA? Because according to "the books" they exist

[Alan O]

Whilst K&K mention a gold a/a one (no s/p date unlike the metal versions) , K&K Vol 2 is not without it's faults as Hugh King's book was based on his knowledge as a collector and not a researcher. The LY is not in Chris Marsh's book which would suggest otherwise.

[hagwalther]

Guys,

Some information from the Late Stephen Risby which was shared with me some years ago when I was putting my A/A book together. He was also responsible for checking a great deal of my work for which I was, and remain, most grateful.

Although Stephen was a serious collector he was also a first class researcher who had access (or made his own access) to many hard to find MoD documents. He also spend many hours in The National Archives studying many aspects of badge issue and manufacture.

He published many papers for journals and certainly could never be accused of confirmation bias which seems quite prevalent these days where good research is treated as opinion and opinion as fact.

File WO32/20559 is to be found in The National Archives at Kew - here is his summary of some of its contents. As you can see, few Yeomanry units that were converted to Royal Artillery (at least at September 1961) wore RA cap badges.

This research by Stephen was included, with his permission, in my own book on page 168.



Additional info.
WO32/20559.
@09.61. List of insignia worn by Yeo Regiments converted to RA:
250 Med Regt RA (QO Dorset & West Somerset Yeo)- new patterns of badges & buttons in hand
251 Fd Regt (Westmoreland & Cumberland Yeo)- RA collar badges, remainder Yeo.
258 LAA Regt (Sussex Yeo) - RA collar badges, remainder Yeo.
281 Fd Regt (Glamorgan Yeo) Yeo collar badges, remainder RA.
286 Fd Regt (H&BY)- Yeo Cap & collars. RA buttons.
195 Hvy Regt (Hants Yeo)- all Yeo pattern.
296 Fd Regt (Royal Devon Yeo) - RA collar badges, remainder Yeo.
298 Fd Regt (Surrey Yeo) - RA collar badges, remainder Yeo.
299 Fd Regt (QO Oxfordshire Hussars Yeo Sqn) - all Yeo pattern.
299 Fd Regt (Bucks Hussars Yeo Sqn) - all Yeo pattern.
304 Fd Regt (EY) - all Yeo pattern & metal shoulder title.
307 Fd Regt (South Notts Hussars Yeo RHA) - all Yeo pattern.
308 Fd Regt (S&NY)- New cap & collar badges in hand. RA buttons.
372 Fd Regt (Flint & Denbigh Yeo)-Yeo cap badge only.
540 LAA Regt (Lovat Scouts)-RA collar badge, remainder Yeo including metal shoulder title.
@09.61. List of Infantry Regiments converted to RA:
265 LAA Regt (Q The Queen’s Own Battery)- RA collar badge, remainder regimental pattern.
283 FD Regt (1st Monmouthshire Regt)- RA badges & buttons. ‘MONMOUTH’ metal titles.
350 LAA Regt (Robin Hood Foresters)- RA collar badges, remainder Regimental pattern.
383 Fd Regt (6 Royal Hamps)- RA buttons, remainder Regimental pattern.
431 LAA Regt (R Bucks Bty)- No collar badges, otherwise Regimental pattern.
439 LAA Regt (S Tyneside Scottish Bty)- RA buttons, remainder Regimental pattern.
457 HAA Regt (IoW Rifles Royal Hamps)- R Hants cap badge- Rifle Brigade pattern.
470 LAA Regt (3 W Lancs. Q Liverpool Irish Bty)- RA collar badges, remainder Regimental
pattern.
512 LAA Regt (Q St. Pancras Bty)- Regimental buttons, remainder RA.
638 LAA Regt (Breconshire & Monmouthshire Regt)- RA Cap badge & buttons, Regimental pattern collar badges.



The cap badge in A/A of the 372nd Field Regiment RA (Flint & Denbigh Yeomanry) TA also existed at least by 1958 where it was deemed to be too reflective.

From my own research and recorded on page 11 of my first book:

This seeding issue was a problem for the 23rd London Regiment (East Surrey) (TA), the 298th (Surrey Yeomanry, Queen Mary’s Regiment) Field Regiment, RA (TA) and the 372nd (Flintshire & Denbighshire Yeomanry) Light Regiment, RA (TA) at their Territorial Army Jubilee parades in May 1958. (21)

Footnote (21) relates to:

Letter dated 24th January 1958, titled Item 20 re: TA Jubilee Parade, numbered 19A and held in file WO 32/16956 at the National Archives, Kew.

'...the books...' are always good source of accurate, official information especially if backed up with reference to publicly available documents. It is a shame that some collectors did not take such official information more seriously.

Chris

[GriffMJ]

Chris.... thanks for that info. I find the "reflectivity" thing a bit of a stretch? The bimetal (dull if unpolished) & AA is basically the same as the 10th Royal Hussars. My guess, as I stated in post #30, is that the badges use was prohibited by the RA HQ. I suspect that all the Welsh Yeo RA units came under the same orders?

[Alan O]

Never the less that's what's recorded. Possibly a push back against the new shiny badges when what they really wanted were the old brass ones.

So it seems fairly certain that the C&D Yeomanry a/a badges were replaced by the F&D yeo a/a badges from 1958-61 and then later the RA gun badge was adopted which is shown in the contemporary photos. The a/a yeomanry badges were then discarded but collars retained. The existence of both worn and mint condition a/a badges of both types is thus explained.

Thank you to all who contributed.

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by Alan O

So it seems fairly certain that the C&D Yeomanry a/a badges were replaced by the F&D yeo a/a badges from 1958-61 and then later the RA gun badge was adopted which is shown in the contemporary photos.

Alan.... Gus (Flint TA Storeman) has already confirmed that the F&D cap badge was not worn or issued.