London Irish

[John Mulcahy]

Sean

The badge you posted raised a very interesting point for me. Some years back some collectors with more experience than I passed on to me some tips on how to spot re-strike LIR badges.

The badge you posted has most of the tell-tale signs of these supposed re-strikes. There are 4 features used to tell (what some people think are) genuine badges from (what some people propose are) fakes.

1) The fake has a missing 'bead' at the bottom end of the row of beads on the Crown's left hand side. Also the Crown actually looks superior on the copy.

2 ) Along the neck of the harp (the cross piece below the crown) there is a row of small 'beads' that run right to left and then run upwards at 90 degrees. On the copy the row that runs vertically is always a solid line and has no 'beads' on it. On original examples this line is always made up of 'beads' and never solid.

3) On the fake the small support piece that runs along the outside of the left column is always large (in width) and more prominent compared to the good ones. The originals have a narrower and longer "outside support" piece

4) Finally on the right (as viewed) above the sound box of the harp you shall see a "ring" The fake WM has only one ring (as does the real GM and BB versions) the real WM has 3 (decreasing ) radii rings.

At home I have photos comparing these two badges side by side, later I shall annotate them and post them up.

I am not trying to be-little your post , but it does lead me to re-visit the advice I have received in the past which would suggest that this is a fake, did the person you bought it from seem to be selling "good stuff" or were there any suspicious items int heir listings?

I would be interested to see the comment's of others.
John

[Alan O]

I must unfortunately agree with John. This badge is identical to the ones produced by restrikers and sold on ebay.

Sorry

Alan

[Luke H]

I agree the badge is a restrike IMO and have seen restrikers do this name printing lark to deceive collectors before I'm afraid, its not that common but certainly occurs as you do see it from time to time at fairs.

Luke

[Col Blacker]

Hi all,

Talk about a learning curve!

I'm on about a 60-40% with restrikes being the 40% so far!

I only paid a fiver for this badge so I won't loose any sleep per se!

The seller only had the one badge and seems not to specialise in such which should have made me think!

A scan of a genuine badge would be helpful and this is another for my restrike referance collection!

At this rate I'll either be an expert in identifying the crap or broke within a year! ha,ha!


Again it is all in the hunt, some you win some you loose - next time..

Sean

[Luke H]

Hi Sean,

You can get some real gems of people selling the odd badge which turned up in an attic clearance or something so don't let that put you off, hang in there.

I know the feeling too we've all learnt the hard way and bought crap, I'm not sure how many badges I still own from my first year or so (it would seem) of 'restrike' collecting. That's the great thing about this place we can learn the easy way for once!

Here's a pic of one I've just bought which I think is OK. I know Wilf has a couple scans of some good ones I'm sure he'll post when he sees the thread

Cheers,

Luke

[Alan O]

This is mine - it is named as well but is genuine imo.

I would point that that this was the post 1937 badge which was worn by the Regt when it was a TF Bn of the Royal Ulster Rifles. They were still the London Irish but the 18th Bn title was gone as the London Regt had been broken up amongst other cap badges and bns.

Alan

[orasot]

Hi Chaps, Here's a couple of mine for comparison, all the best, Wilf.

[John Mulcahy]

Finally getting round to replying. When I was a member of the Ulster Military Historical Society the then newsletter editor (George Martin) and others shared some tips with me on recognising fake LIR badges.

The White Metal Badge

Attached below are from left to right, a good WM badge front, a good badge back, a photo of a fake WM badge with a fake BB alongside and a further WM variation (that it think is good) both front and back

There are 4 points of interest in identifying the fake WM from a good WM badge

1) The missing bead
A missing 'bead' at the bottom end of the row of beads on the Crown's left hand side.

note that both the white metal copy and the b/brass copies appear to have been struck from the same die, so both look like this regardless of metal type. The nearest I know to one of these patterns was a WW2 die used for making Officer patterns, but these had void harp strings and were impressed with a 'P' on the back denoting silver plate and also some were impressed with an 'S' denoting silver at this period.. You willl note that the copy has a good quality finish especially the Crown when compared to the genuine ones .

2) The neck of the harp under the crown
Along the neck (centre 'strut'- the horizontal one) you will note a row of small 'beads' that run right to left and then run upwards at 90 degrees, on the copy the row that runs up is always a solid line and has no 'beads' on it. You can see in the 3 examples above that this line is always made up of 'beads' and never solid.

3) The Outside support piece on the left arch.
The 'support' piece that runs along the outside of the left have strut is always very large and prominent compared to the good ones.

The Crown (as already mentioned) is actually superior on the copy!
Beware of the 'J R Gaunt London' slider on this badge!!


4) The number of rings on the right strut
Not a universal indicator this. Some (but not all) good WM badges have three rings at the top right hand strut of the harp; copies have only 1 ring as has the blackened brass and gilt examples.
The WM copy is easily spotted as the pattern of the good one is completely different, more difficult is the b/brass, more later in the next post

[John Mulcahy]

Blackened Brass

The fake BB badges all appear ro be made from the same die as the fake WM badge.

Below L to R is an example of an other ranks capbadge in die-struck blackened brass (always gives a nice 'matt' finish, beware of anything that has been 'glossed' to try and copy this effect) front and back then on the right a fake BB front.

A 'BEND line' in the slider of the good badge is present although thin and not easy to spot. You will also note differences in the crown shape from the WM examples and fake BB, this is important when considering the re-strikes of this badge.

[John Mulcahy]

Gilding Metal

I have never been convinced that GM badges are anything other than un-blackened BB Badges. However you do find them. Maybe one day I shall get around to researching the regiments badges to see if GM badges were ever actually issued.

Below is an other-ranks capbadge in GM, die-struck with a slider. You will note the 'horizontal' line where the slider had been gripped and shaped in manufacture.

All these badges have been re-struck for a long time and a lot of them have J R Gaunt London, on the slider. Gaunts issued them as re-strikes at the time and not to try and pass them off as genuine, that has been done by others. .

[Col Blacker]

Hi all,

I need some help in identifying a badge.

I think it may be an 18th London Irish but I am uncertain?

The badge is a modern badge, possibly current issue- ? - is made from heavy chrome metal and is stamped on the back with the makers name "Firmin".

Confirmation of what it is would be much apprecaited.

(Sorry for the pictures but the glare from the camera flash and the chrome metal made it difficult to photograph).

Thank-you

Sean.

[Alan O]

Sean,

Where did you get it and can you get me one! It is the new London Irish beret badge. The 18th Bn London title ended in 1937 but the London irish title remains as a Company in the London regt which is now (very recently)linked to the Guards Div. They now have a beret as well as a cuabeen and needed a smaller badge than previously used.

Alan

[Col Blacker]

Originally Posted by Alan Owen

Sean,

Where did you get it and can you get me one! It is the new London Irish beret badge. The 18th Bn London title ended in 1937 but the London irish title remains as a Company in the London regt which is now (very recently)linked to the Guards Div. They now have a beret as well as a cuabeen and needed a smaller badge than previously used.

Alan

Hi Alan,

Many thanks for the confirmation I was hoping it was an 18th London Irish badge.

It is in an excellent condition although by the picture it looks badly scratched - but it's not.

It was part of a lot bought on eBay of collars and badges - mostly restrikes. I was actually after another Irish collar in the lot so I am very pleased at this extra find! Works out at about £4.75, so very happy!

Sorry but there was only this one...

Many thanks

Sean

[John Mulcahy]

Alan

a German seller on e-bay, think he calls himself UK-SOLDIER has some from time to time. Uusally a buy it now listing.

John

[John Mulcahy]

I have found the links

e-bay number 130079487611. I have bought a few items from this seller, a little overpriced from time to time but very satisfactory service. I got mine from him about a year ago, Firmin on the slider.

Cadet direct also stock it, see this link and scroll to the bottom of the page. These guys may have a bulk order policy - not sure, check the terms.

http://www.cadetdirect.com/products2.php?subcat=305

I have no connection to, nor interest in either parties.

John