South Wales Borderers - All Gilding metal 1916 Economy - F.Narborough

[41st]

Andy,
Are we aware of any other badges with these tabs?
If not I'll try and arrange a trawl through the records at Brecon as I've some work up there soon.
Keith,
I note your comments and would generally agree with the exception of the slider to the rear of the ebay badge. I've seen this type on other badges and have never been comfortable with them.
Hwyl fawr,
Kevin

[41st]

I've just noticed that the ebay example is not fully struck out between the letters and the wreath.
Not a good sign IMO.
Kevin

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by Keith Blakeman

I've always been of the opinion that shank manufactuer was carried out by a third party and branded to suit. If the SWB one is beleive to be genuine (which I think it is), then that shank shape and brand can be securely dated to 1916-18 which also flies in the face of longer tapered sliders for WW1 badges.

Keith,
that's badge collecting for you!!! I'm still of the opinion that the majority of early sliders 1903/6-30s were a tad longer with a very slight taper, but there were exceptions.. below is a Lambourne marked slider on a West Yorks Bim.. A mark I would attribute to late/just post WW1? It is short and uniform in shape!

On a slightly different matter, just to illustrate that there are not many hard and fast "Rules of Thumb" in badge collecting... I always state quite strongly that Officers badges (99% of the time) do not have slider fittings. As upto this morning I only had one genuine officers badge with a slider, a J.R. GAUNT LONDON (Large font and no dot) marked S/G North Irish Brigade.. Then this morning I took proud possesion of a S/G/E Edwardian pattern ASC Officers badge (KK 988 c.1902-11).. And blow me, it has a slider? It is thin and looks to have been shortened slightly but there is no sign of there ever being lugs or blades?? It's a cracking badge which I am sure is in original condition?

Andy

[Keith Blakeman]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Keith,
that's badge collecting for you!!! I'm still of the opinion that the majority of early sliders 1903/6-30s were a tad longer with a very slight taper, but there were exceptions.. below is a Lambourne marked slider on a West Yorks Bim.. A mark I would attribute to late/just post WW1? It is short and uniform in shape!

Andy

Majority, yes without doubt. There are others however such as the 6th East Surrey's which fall very much into the 70's re-strike mould, also my 6th London after looking at Matti's on another thread is very similar. The saving grace is the crimp line though.

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[Alan O]

Originally Posted by 41st

I've just noticed that the ebay example is not fully struck out between the letters and the wreath.
Not a good sign IMO.
Kevin

Kevin,

In fact I would say this is a good sign! Their RUR (and I have one with provenace from the 1940s that cannot be disputed as original) badge is noticable as it is not properly voided. As for the tabs, they result from the way that the die has been cut and should probably have been removed as part of the finsishing process. Just as with the sloppy voiding they have not been.

Alan

[41st]

Alan,
Comments noted.
Upon checking my collection I find I have an all white metal example exactly the same which I don't think was ever issued (perhaps that's why) and another all white metal that is fully struck out. I have no hesitation in stating that both are genuine due to a number of factors which I won't go into now.
The rest (including 5th VB) have various strikes, but mainly the variation lies between whether there is a void between the W and the B.
I'll post these over the w/end.

Andy,
Looking at your ASC S&G I recognised the method of gilding as soon as I saw it. Jeff McWilliam will too if he sees this post.
For those of us who collect Victorian and earlier helmet plates it is common to find the front only of the badge gilded as the labour involved was cheap and the gilt not so, comparatively of course.
I'd go with a very early example from when cap badges were first introduced, say 1897 on.

Kevin

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by 41st

Alan,
Comments noted.
Upon checking my collection I find I have an all white metal example exactly the same which I don't think was ever issued (perhaps that's why) and another all white metal that is fully struck out. I have no hesitation in stating that both are genuine due to a number of factors which I won't go into now.
The rest (including 5th VB) have various strikes, but mainly the variation lies between whether there is a void between the W and the B.
I'll post these over the w/end.

Andy,
Looking at your ASC S&G I recognised the method of gilding as soon as I saw it. Jeff McWilliam will too if he sees this post.
For those of us who collect Victorian and earlier helmet plates it is common to find the front only of the badge gilded as the labour involved was cheap and the gilt not so, comparatively of course.
I'd go with a very early example from when cap badges were first introduced, say 1897 on.

Kevin

Kevin,
I agree that it is old, but not older than 1902 (crown is a bit of a give away!) - Andy

[41st]

Andy,
"I agree that it is old, but not older than 1902 (crown is a bit of a give away!) - Andy"
Should have looked a bit closer at the pattern of the badge shouldn't I. Got excited by the gilding.
That would place it in the Edwardian period of course.
What I don't know is when this method of gilding died out.
Kevin

[2747andy]

Kevin,
K&K dates it as c.1902-11. I agree that the Gilt finish is superb!! The slider is what I was not expecting... lugs or blades are far more common, even from such an early date. Does anyone else have an example of this badge with this or any other fittings?

Andy

[41st]

Andy,
The man to ask is Bantam, he has a large collection of ASC.
Kevin

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Kevin,
K&K dates it as c.1902-11. I agree that the Gilt finish is superb!! The slider is what I was not expecting... lugs or blades are far more common, even from such an early date. Does anyone else have an example of this badge with this or any other fittings?

Andy

[Jeff Mc William]

Andy. An excellent officers ASC badge.
The finish is "Fire-gilt" a complicated, costly, and dangerous process, which however was not banned until the late 1950s I believe. As Kevin says, a superb example.
Re the slider on officers badges, this is a subject I know little about other than to say that I have seen others to different regiments in my travels. Regards Jeff

[fougasse1940]

Then this morning I took proud possesion of a S/G/E Edwardian pattern ASC Officers badge (KK 988 c.1902-11).. And blow me, it has a slider? It is thin and looks to have been shortened slightly but there is no sign of there ever being lugs or blades?? It's a cracking badge which I am sure is in original condition?

Andy[/QUOTE]

K&K seem to have skipped an ASC version, the 1902-1911 version with a slightly larger Crown attached to the star instead of to the garter as this badge has. Otherwise these are identical in detail. Your verson is dated Ca. 1911-1915.
The 1915-1919 version had a thicker monogram, a different garter tongue and buckle and a 14 leave laurel wreath instead of 33 leaves.
Everything you always wanted to know about ASC/RASC badges can be found here: http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...+service+corps
Curious badge this, with its slider. Is the monogram backing enamel? In the picture it looks more like leather.

Rgds,
fougasse1940.