Period worn?

[BROOKIES]

Kevin.

Nice little collection you got going there, good to see.

Do have a nice large cabinet photo of officers in camp, three variants of cap badges, four different version of collars.

Ta

[Frank Kelley]

Thanks Kevin, that is certainly a very fine collection.

Originally Posted by 41st

Hi Frank,
Yours looks to be one of the later variants of this badge. I’ll dig out what I have & give you a time line as best I can. In the meantime here are mine to the Pembs Yeo.
Hwyl
Kevin

[Frank Kelley]

Again, very many thanks Kevin, I'll go with Pattern 15161 then, I just felt it to be not the norm when I looked at it.

Originally Posted by 41st

Please bear with me on the timeline as I will be working backwards as I retrieve my notes from the various places I've stashed them.
The easy bit is the last pattern badges.

I have the a/a collars issued to A troop, 224 (West Wales) Squadron, RCT on 15.03.81. My notes state that this was to the Pembroke Troop only and that all squadrons were issued with them from 21.02.87

I can confirm that from 1920 when the Pembs Yeo became 102nd Field Regiment RA they were badged as RA but the officers were wearing bronze regimental pattern collars again by 1938 with standard RA cap badges. I do have a reference to regimental badges again being worn by 146th Field Reg't in 1942 when shipped out to Egypt, but I haven't been able to establish yet whether this was just the officers collars again although I would presume so.

With regards to the badge under discussion the notes I made at the IWM concur with what has already been posted in that the subject badge appears to be Pattern No. 15161 11.08.52.
I have the subsequent a/a cap badge Pattern No. 18732 as appraised 14.11.67 although another note I made at the time suggests that the Firmin sealed pattern badge dates from 1962. In my defence I was rushing to take down as much information as I could in one visit.

What I can state at this time for the earlier badges is that no regimental pattern cap badges were worn during the Boer War. The first pattern cap badges were white metal with a gilding metal crown only and most photographs show the pattern with the motto scrolls down on the title scroll. Brookies has however got a couple of photos to prove that variants with the motto scrolls up were also worn pre Great War.

I have seen an Edwardian period officer's dress cap with an all silver cap badge on so presume that all white metal ORs badges must have been worn but have no evidence of this at the present.

The big problem is their records have been spread far and wide. So far i've been to IWM, Scolton Manor where the bulk of them used to be stored (but gone by the time I got there), Tenby Musuem (very helpful staff and great for the early Victorian stuff), Pembroke Castle and Haverfordwest County Archives. All without much success so far.

[3dg]

What an interesting thread, most educational.
I do believe what Kevin says is right about the curled up Ich Dien scrolled WM Fishguard scroll badge being the earlier one, I've photos, that I can't post on here due to family not wanting them online, They're dated 1911 and 12 and all are wearing the bi metal PWO feather's badge with the WM Fishguard scroll, Ich Dien scrolls curled up badge, similar to Frank's, but with the obvious WM Fishguard scroll.
These photos I've posted are available on line Google images, show both the curled up Ich Dien, and the flat more straight ones.
I too thought Frank's badge was older, due to the curled up scrolls, maybe they used the same dies?
As I said, an interesting thread.

Chris

[Frank Kelley]

Morning Kevin,
So the first ranker's badge you refer to here, I assume would ultimately become WO Pattern 9287 of the 12th of April 1916 as mentioned in post three in this thread, which does appear in all the period photographs, with the motto scrolls being manufacturers variations?
Still, very handsome and nicely made badges, but, I assume simply described as bi metal by the War Office, rather than actually stating just the coronet in gilding metal.
Frank

Originally Posted by 41st

What I can state at this time for the earlier badges is that no regimental pattern cap badges were worn during the Boer War. The first pattern cap badges were white metal with a gilding metal crown only and most photographs show the pattern with the motto scrolls down on the title scroll. Brookies has however got a couple of photos to prove that variants with the motto scrolls up were also worn pre Great War.

[Luke H]

I think Alan’s suggestion of the pattern potentially being re-sealed in 1952 seems plausible and an entirely possible scenario to me based on the physical attributes of the badge in post #1.

Post WW2 badge manufacture seemed largely confined to the big companies like Gaunt, Firmin, Dowler etc. Compare the known die stamped metal badges of this period and quality of their manufacture to the badge in the OP. You’ll struggle to find such a poor reverse strike.

Add to that it sports POW feathers from a die extant pre-1920.

In addition to earlier patterns that have not yet been discovered there is also the possibility the 1915 WO pattern Julian mentions in BM could potentially have been misinterpreted by a new manufacturer as the Pembroke scroll being in GM, it wouldn’t be the most heinous WW1 manufacturing mistake.

I’m certain the 1952 pattern will be the badge shown in Kevin’s photo (bottom row, left) where the badge is overlaid and ID scrolls are annealed to the Fishguard scroll. This conformation also carried on with the AA version.

Others will probably disagree but I’m of the firm conviction the badge that is the topic of this thread pre-dates the 1950s by some considerable time.

[Frank Kelley]

I think, to be quite honest, that I will keep an open mind about this particular badge.
I don't bother with yeomanry anyway and certainly not beyond the Great War period, when the horse's start being sold off, but, it's all about actual evidence and to date I have yet to see any that clearly shows this badge actually being worn during the period up to the end of the Great War.

Originally Posted by Luke H

I think Alan’s suggestion of the pattern potentially being re-sealed in 1952 seems plausible and an entirely possible scenario to me based on the physical attributes of the badge in post #1.

Post WW2 badge manufacture seemed largely confined to the big companies like Gaunt, Firmin, Dowler etc. Compare the known die stamped metal badges of this period and quality of their manufacture to the badge in the OP. You’ll struggle to find such a poor reverse strike.

Add to that it sports POW feathers from a die extant pre-1920.

In addition to earlier patterns that have not yet been discovered there is also the possibility the 1915 WO pattern Julian mentions in BM could potentially have been misinterpreted by a new manufacturer as the Pembroke scroll being in GM, it wouldn’t be the most heinous WW1 manufacturing mistake.

I’m certain the 1952 pattern will be the badge shown in Kevin’s photo (bottom row, left) where the badge is overlaid and ID scrolls are annealed to the Fishguard scroll. This conformation also carried on with the AA version.

Others will probably disagree but I’m of the firm conviction the badge that is the topic of this thread pre-dates the 1950s by some considerable time.