Gunner Uniform Date and Style - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Postwarden · #1 26-03-15, 02:35 PM

I am attempting to date the attached photo, a Sgt Rough Rider, probably RFA from his arm badges.

His jacket appears to be the ORs frock introduced for the RFA and RGA in 1878but it lacks shoulder straps and cuff ornamentation. Collar grenades were introduced in 1880 suggesting a date before that.

I am not an expert on RA uniforms of this period. Can any informed members help out please?

Jon

Toby Purcell · #2 26-03-15, 02:43 PM

Going by the general appearance I would date it to 1879-1880 the same as you Jon. I will try and research further what is clearly a 5-button working frock and report back later on.

manchesters · #3 26-03-15, 02:49 PM

I would say he is a Cavalry man.

Rough Riding Instructor Sgt. with an NCO's regimental badge above, possibly PoW feathers. I dont think its a crown.

regards

Toby Purcell · #4 26-03-15, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manchesters

I would say he is a Cavalry man.

Rough Riding Instructor Sgt. with an NCO's regimental badge above, possibly PoW feathers. I dont think its a crown.

regards

Well spotted, even on just my phone I can see a badge above the spur now that you have drawn it to my attention. I can't see well enough to comment if it is PoW feathers, but I think you might well be right that he is a cavalryman.

Postwarden · #5 26-03-15, 04:48 PM

A close up of the badge shows it as definitely an RA gun, the muzzle and ram rod - as per this later example - clearly visible.

Jon

manchesters · #6 26-03-15, 05:01 PM

Yes,

You are right, I was wrong.

regards

Postwarden · #7 26-03-15, 05:27 PM

Simon,

Easy mistake to make based on the original photo. I had to blow it up to see the gun.

A friend who studies civilian costume dates their clothes to 1891-1893 which has thrown me somewhat.

Jon

54Bty · #8 26-03-15, 05:56 PM

There was a "Fatigue Jacket" that did sometimes defy the regulations.

Marc

Sonofacqms · #9 26-03-15, 06:25 PM

Edward Bex settled in the West Sussex seaside town of Worthing in 1887 where he worked under the trade name of "Edward Edwards". This puts the dates of 1891-93 a probability.

Rob

davidwyke · #10 27-03-15, 09:55 AM

Were the RA O/R's brass collar grenades introduced as early as 1880? I thought it was later than that - c. 1895/1897 but unfortunately I don't have a reference to back that up. I have used that period to help date old photos though and it usually seems to fit..

Perhaps someone else can clarify?

David

Further to the above, I've just checked some notes I've made over the years and 1897 is the date I have for the introduction of RA O/R's brass collar grenades. Unfortunately, I haven't noted where I got that date from, wish I had done now, so I can't guarantee that it's accurate.

Toby Purcell · #11 27-03-15, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidwyke

Were the RA O/R's brass collar grenades introduced as early as 1880? I thought it was later than that - c. 1895/1897 but unfortunately I don't have a reference to back that up. I have used that period to help date old photos though and it usually seems to fit..

Perhaps someone else can clarify?

David

Further to the above, I've just checked some notes I've made over the years and 1897 is the date I have for the introduction of RA O/R's brass collar grenades. Unfortunately
, I haven't noted where I got that date from, wish I had done now, so I can't guarantee that it's accurate.

No I don't believe so David, all the references I have, including books specifically on RA dress, say 1880-1881 for the OR's plain brass grenade.

davidwyke · #12 27-03-15, 04:00 PM

Thanks for clarifying that, Toby!

The question which now arises is how widely were they worn? I've certainly seen photos which definately post date 1880/1881 for one reason or another and no grenade collar badges are being worn.

As an example, a photo of a regular artilleryman which, unusually, is signed and dated on the reverse - 1886 - but no collar badges.

David

54Bty · #13 27-03-15, 04:33 PM

The Universal pattern grenade, should have been worn on the Frock from 1878, and the Tunic from 1880.

It was not worn by the RHA.

Marc

Toby Purcell · #14 27-03-15, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidwyke

Were the RA O/R's brass collar grenades introduced as early as 1880? I thought it was later than that - c. 1895/1897 but unfortunately I don't have a reference to back that up. I have used that period to help date old photos though and it usually seems to fit..

Perhaps someone else can clarify?

David

Further to the above, I've just checked some notes I've made over the years and 1897 is the date I have for the introduction of RA O/R's brass collar grenades. Unfortunately, I haven't noted where I got that date from, wish I had done now, so I can't guarantee that it's accurate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidwyke

Thanks for clarifying that, Toby!

The question which now arises is how widely were they worn? I've certainly seen photos which definately post date 1880/1881 for one reason or another and no grenade collar badges are being worn.

As an example, a photo of a regular artilleryman which, unusually, is signed and dated on the reverse - 1886 - but no collar badges.

David

All I can say is that they were regulation. As with all soldiers they do not always observe a regulation, often through no fault of their own. That said, you will see them far often than not.

davidwyke · #15 28-03-15, 10:34 AM

Just for interests sake I did a "survey" of the RA photos I have as the results might have a bearing on dating the photo in question.

I have a total of 26 CDV's & Cabinet Photos which definately depict RA O/R's., both Regular & Volunteers. (I realise the Vols probably wore white metal grenades rather than brass). Out of the 26, 16 of them are wearing collar grenades. So, no problem there, they have to date after 1878/1880 as per the dates provided by Marc. That's also fairly obvious with most of them due to other factors.

Of the remaining 10 (without collar grenades), 5 of them definately date after the above period also, confirmed by factors such as the date mentioned above, the photographers imprint being dated, uniform items, etc. That leaves 5 more, at least a couple of which are probably also after the above period although I can't be sure. The other 3 or so are probably 1870's so are correct without the grenades.

I suppose all this supports what Toby intimated, that Regulations are one thing but what was actually worn could be something else again.

The new "rule of thumb" for me as regards RA collar badges will be if they are being worn then the photo has to be after 1878/1880, if they are not being worn then it could be earlier than that but not necessarily so.

Make of that what you will as regards the photo in question!

David