Royal Munster PAGRI?

[MH331]

From the same ebay seller as the RMF Collar Badges I bought this officers bi metal S/T that has been mounted on green cloth with a stiff cloth backing. The backing has evidence of stitching as if to a cap or uniform and the nap of the cloth under where the S/T has been mounted is less worn. I am familiar with the Shamrock backing on the Sun Helmet but wondered if this was possibly a variant?

regards

Mark

[Graham Stewart]

Very interesting and quite possible. 1911 Dress reg's(for officers) do state that no devices were to be worn with the khaki FSH, nor was the white helmet to be "perforated", when fixing devices. As you well know the khaki FSH did have regimental devices attached probably approved or otherwise and the badge illustrated could well have been fixed to the pagri on the side of the helmet using this method, without "perforating" it.

[MH331]

Thanks for the info Graham.

[John Mulcahy]

Mark

follow the link below to (hopefully) find a series of 4 photos of RMF personnel. The bottom left photo shows a patch similiar in shape to the one you show.

This is the 1st Battlion, they arrived in Nowshera approx. March 3rd 1910 (from Rawalpindi) and in an order dated June 5th 1911 are listed as moving from Nowshera to Rangoon.

The sharmock backing also appears as a backing around this time.

When the battalion arrived in Coventry in 1915 still in tropical SD pictures taken at the time around and about town show the Khaki FSH with no patches, badges only hackles.

http://www.royalmunsterfusiliers.org/a6u11_14.htm

Incidently this badge is ofter referred to as a shoulder title. I have never found a sealed pattern number for it. Nor did the late Maj. David Linaker (who had a tremendous amount of research completed at the NA) I had asked him often if he knew the origins of this badge. Thus I think it is a regimental pattern and would love to know if anyone has evidence of it being worn on the epaulette at all.

John

[Graham Stewart]

Originally Posted by John Mulcahy

Mark

follow the link below to (hopefully) find a series of 4 photos of RMF personnel. The bottom left photo shows a patch similiar in shape to the one you show.

This is the 1st Battlion, they arrived in Nowshera approx. March 3rd 1910 (from Rawalpindi) and in an order dated June 5th 1911 are listed as moving from Nowshera to Rangoon.

The sharmock backing also appears as a backing around this time.

When the battalion arrived in Coventry in 1915 still in tropical SD pictures taken at the time around and about town show the Khaki FSH with no patches, badges only hackles.

http://www.royalmunsterfusiliers.org/a6u11_14.htm

Incidently this badge is ofter referred to as a shoulder title. I have never found a sealed pattern number for it. Nor did the late Maj. David Linaker (who had a tremendous amount of research completed at the NA) I had asked him often if he knew the origins of this badge. Thus I think it is a regimental pattern and would love to know if anyone has evidence of it being worn on the epaulette at all.

John

That's interesting and in line with a point I was trying make regarding the non-existent "economy" DLI badges, which I and others had in our collections(pre-repro) and not well worn 6th Bn badges as suggested.

Something comes to my about units being able to procure their own badges, etc, if not satisfied with those on offer from the pattern office, as long as it wasn't at "public expense". This happend with the fur cap grenade badges of the RRF, they were purchased from Pakistan I believe by the unit and not by the MOD.

India also is also thousands of miles from Horse Guards and therefore could be approved out there. The red pagri flash of the Northumberlands used in India was approved by the Commander-in-Chief, not HG

[MH331]

John,

Many many thanks the photographic link is really first class evidence.

regards

Mark

[John Mulcahy]

Originally Posted by mark holden

I am familiar with the Shamrock backing on the Sun Helmet ?

For completion I thought it would be worthwhile posting this photo, one of the many in the album made by the 2nd Bn while in Cairo in 1921.

This combination (shamrock backing, metal badge & hackle) appeared as early as 1913 with the 1st Bn in Rangoon.

John

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by John Mulcahy

For completion I thought it would be worthwhile posting this photo, one of the many in the album made by the 2nd Bn while in Cairo in 1921.

This combination (shamrock backing, metal badge & hackle) appeared as early as 1913 with the 1st Bn in Rangoon.

John

Cracking photo John, I do so love the RDF and RMF photos and insignia. Thanks for posting it.

[MH331]

John,

As requested the reverseof the metal badge worn on the Pagri Patch

Mark

[leigh kitchen]

Originally Posted by Graham Stewart

That's interesting and in line with a point I was trying make ..........
Something comes to my about units being able to procure their own badges, etc, if not satisfied with those on offer from the pattern office, as long as it wasn't at "public expense". This happend with the fur cap grenade badges of the RRF, they were purchased from Pakistan I believe by the unit and not by the MOD.
India also is also thousands of miles from Horse Guards and therefore could be approved out there. The red pagri flash of the Northumberlands used in India was approved by the Commander-in-Chief, not HG

Graham, the cast metal RRF Drummer's badge which arrived at The Tower about Jan 1980, whilst I was loitering in the vicinity.

As explained to me by Major Connelly, the PRI at the time, these badges & accompanying officer's gilt & silver finish beret badges (dimensions as per the O.R.'s anodised beret badge) & hackles in the colours of the R Warks Fus, RF & LF had just arrived having been commissioned from a manufacturer in Pakistan.

This Drummer's badge was decried in the 80's / 90's as a fake, which it isn't, & as you've pointed out in the past is / was worn by the C.O.'s Piper on the plaid.

[John Mulcahy]

seeing this thread resurrected I am reminded that since the first post was made in 2007 I have become more and more convinced that the badge shown in Westlake (1st edition) as 1425 is not a shoulder title but a badge solely for the FSH.

By 1911 it is well documented, by contemporary photographs in the regimental annual, that officers and men of the 1st Bn, then stationed in India, were wearing "Westlake 1425" on the FSH.

Thus far I have found no official reference to them nor anything in print other than photographs. It is probable that they are unofficial badges and it is possible they were used only for wear in the FSH.

The smaller version (Westlake 1426) can be seen to be a shoulder title in photos of Officers wearing the khaki shirt.


John

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by John Mulcahy

seeing this thread resurrected I am reminded that since the first post was made in 2007 I have become more and more convinced that the badge shown in Westlake (1st edition) as 1425 is not a shoulder title but a badge solely for the FSH.

By 1911 it is well documented, by contemporary photographs in the regimental annual, that officers and men of the 1st Bn, then stationed in India, were wearing "Westlake 1425" on the FSH.

Thus far I have found no official reference to them nor anything in print other than photographs. It is probable that they are unofficial badges and it is possible they were used only for wear in the FSH.

The smaller version (Westlake 1426) can be seen to be a shoulder title in photos of Officers wearing the khaki shirt.

John

It is Clear John that these larger titles were worn in the FSH, as you say, but I would be a little cautious about attributing them to special regimental issue. Most regiments, including fusiliers, had a quite large shoulder title pattern issued that was apparently intended for greatcoats, although I have no idea how frequently they were worn as such. It seems possible that these were used by the RMF for the FSH.

[John Mulcahy]

Mark

over the last year or so I have been fortunate to have access to the photo archive of the Royal Munster Fusilier Association to help with my research.

I see this green pagri badge backing in use from pre summer of 1904 to c. 1912 before the green shamrock backing takes over.

The images I have that I can accurately date to pre-summer 1904 ( Mc Cance’s history of the regiment notes that the wearing of white helmets was discontinued at this time, and all spikes and chains were handed in and the helmets rendered khaki by means of khaki Blanco) shows personnel with white Wolseley Helmets with spikes and chains with this square backing and the M/Grenade/F Badge on the left hand side. No plumes or hackles in use.

I am more convinced than ever that the badge is not a re-purposed title but more on that at a later date.

The FSH badge and embellishment sequence I see for the regiment is as follows.

2 Bn (1 Bn not stationed in regions where FSH was issued)
1881 - 1900, Full dress grenade in white FSH, no badges or embellishments in khaki.

1Bn (to S. Africa 1900, whence to India 1902, Burma and then Coventry in 1915)

1900 - 1 Bn wore cut down epaulettes in khaki FSH (left side) no plumes/hackles

c. 1903 Glengarry grenade on front of helmet with horse hair plume on left side of khaki FSH

by summer 1904 Wolseley Helmet in use M Grenade F badge with green patch horse hair plume in white full dress on left hand side no hackle or plume

by c. 1907 Same as 1904 but plume now added

by Rangoon 1913 Hackle has replaced plume, shamrock shaped patch replaced square backing.

1915 on arrival in Coventry for forming up of 29 Div. Hackle only.

this configuration repeated after the great war by 2 Bn in Egypt.

John




John

[Toby Purcell]

Thank you John, that is fascinating information and, as you say, seems to point towards special regimental purchase. This was very common in India, where all QMs held an account with a contractor (invariably based in the regimental bazaar) who could provide tailoring, laundry (dhobi) and manufacture of insignia and other items (including leather wear), as and when required. Many battalions used these services to provide special insignia for regimental servants, especially the mess khidmatgars and, over time this led to some differences between battalions of the same regiment. It might well be then that this is the source of your ostensible shoulder titles, but actual head dress insignia. Not all of these variations are well recorded.

[dirtyshirt]

Hi John,
I agree with most of what you suggest regarding the wearing of both the small and larger "M grenade F" badges.I have 2 photos of Munsters wering the smaller version in Nowshera in 1908-1910. Also in Coventry in 1915 with a group of Munsters outside the Cottege Inn in Earlsdon a few (Including William O' Leary VC) wearing the smaller version, as well as a seperate photo. In addition I have a photo of the larger version being worn in around 1915. It is particularly clear on on CSM James Leahy dated 1909.What I suggest is that the larger version may have beenfor a short period from 1908/9 and by 1913 the larger version was worn on the topee helmet.The smaller version however was worn from the period approximately 1908 to at least 1915 by the 1st Battalion.